walnut and apple wood

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There are different Sweethearts at different prices. Part of it is the kind of whistle/flageolet that is made and the amount of work that goes into each. Another part is the availability of wood. Walnut, apple, and such are domestic. Blackwood, rosewood, and cocobola are imported and more expensive. When in doubt, ask Ralph though! I think its ralphsweet@aol.com

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The difference in cost is definitely not due just to the cost of the wood. When a maker charges a $20 (or greater) more for a whistle, I’m sure that the wood doesn’t cost $20 more. There are differences in how difficult a wood is to work, the quality of the end product, and, related to both, the amount of work a whistlewright puts into a piece of wood.

For example, I don’t think Ralph Sweet could get as much for a cherry whistle as for one from blackwood. Part of the reason is, no matter how hard he works on a piece of cherry, it’s not going to finish up like blackwood, because it doesn’t have as much intrinsic oil and the grain isn’t as tight. It will never be as shiny on the outside (which doesn’t make a bit of difference in how it plays), nor on the inside (which does). So it doesn’t make sense to put as much time into polishing it, reaming the bore, etc.

For reference, people like Glenn Schultz and Paul Busman charge the same for many types of wood. They also don’t (AFAIK) work in cherry or walnut, probably because they can’t make the very thin-walled whistles reliably out of it. But they charge the same for blackwood, which many makers charge a premium for, or cocobolo, or, in Paul’s case, bocote, which I’ve never seen anyplace else (and which is about the coolest wood I’ve ever seen).

I will also add that Phil Bleazey charges a premium for blackwood, over boxwood or mopane. I have his whistles in boxwood and blackwood, and I think without a doubt that the box is a much finer whistle than the black. This may be variation in individual hand-voiced whistles, but I’m convinced based on other experience that box is simply a superior wood for flutes and whistles.

Cherry is pretty hard wood by domestic hardwood standards, but not as hard as many of the exotics. A woodworking friend gave me some nice cherry to practice on when I was first learning to make whistles, and the first decent whistle I ever made was of that wood. Not really bad at all. This is a very pretty wood which finishes up nicely . Although I try hard to find hardwoods from non-endangered sources ( ie farmed hardwoods), there are some people who simply won’t buy tropical hardwoods, and Cherry is a pretty good domestic choice ( I have a piece of Osage Orange in the works right now which promises to be interesting-- at the moment is is a bright Canary yellow, but I think in time it will darken).
Walnut is also pretty stuff, but the grain structure is pretty open, and without sealing the bore might not work out very well in thinwalled whistles.

Cherry, if I recall correctly, is also the most stable of all domestic hardwoods. If it sounds good, it would probably be a good choice for whistles. And it’s very pretty.

Best wishes,
Jerry

P.S. Paul, please keep us posted on the Osage orange project.

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OK, I’m gonna repeat myself here. Make sure the tung oil application is only in the bore. Sweet’s a whistlemaker, I’m not, but tung oil IS poisonous and should never be used where mouth contact is possible. This tung oil stuff with flutes and whistles gives me the willies. I’d suggest the Japanese alternative for smoother bores: lacquer, instead. Please be careful. I hate to sound like a broken record, but I think folks need to be aware of this. Thanks for letting me rant. :swear:

N

Nano - When dried, isn’t tung oil safe?

Paul - Keep us posted on the osage orange experiment. I think it would be the North American version of blackwood (incredibly hard, stable, oily - in many ways the growth patters of osage orange trees resemble what I’ve read about blackwood trees).

Eric

Jayhawk, I was under the impression that tung oil retains its toxicity after drying. I’m no expert, but as I recall from past containers’ warning labels, there was explicit mention against using tung oil for wooden items that would be used for food. I extended the reasoning to mouth-blown instruments.

Again, if tung oil applications are confined to the bore, I imagine that there’s a greatly reduced risk, but I think people can understand my call for caution here. It’s just not for me.

Best,
N

I don’t think walnut sounds so good. Best

From the Woodworkers Supply online catalog:

“Applied directly from the container, Master’s Blend™ 100% Pure Tung Oil is non-toxic.”

Perhaps this bears more looking into, but I was surprised when you said tung oil is toxic. It’s a natural product. It may be that tung oil products that have driers and other additives are toxic, even if pure tung oil is not.

Best wishes,
Jerry

From a fiddle player’s perspective, mountain mahogany (a misnomer, it’s a bush-like plant that grows in the SW US) is the ne plus ultra when it comes to hard woods. The wood is super expensive (a set of peg blanks will run you $300) and difficult to work with (apparently it can splinter easily) but the pegs are the longest lasting of any kind.

Anyone heard (of) a whistle made of this stuff?

Also, what about ironwood? Would that work?

The osage orange sounds amazing, I have a friend who makes pipes and he is making some out of some absolutely stunning osage orange…he’s got some kind of propriatary finish he puts on them that turns them this beautiful burnt orange color and a smooth, almost greasy feeling finish. Please let me know how they turn out!!!

Paul

Not sure what type of Ironwood you are talking about.
I have made whistles from an Australian timber called Cooktown Ironwood which makes terrific instruments. It’s a sort of honey brown with a smooth, subtle grain. The stuff is very dense: it actually sinks in water.

Hmmm, the “ironwood” that I am thinking of is American and also sinks…it could be the wood that I am thinking of is just generically referred to as “ironwood”. I had a bow made out of the stuff, real strong, dark dark brown.

PC

American ironwood, sometimes called musclewood, grows in North American hardwood forests. It doesn’t grow very large, is recognisable by the smooth bark and unusual sinewy/muscle-like contours of the trunks, which are usually straight and seldom more than about eight inches in diameter. You might be able to find several trees in a woods somewhere nearby. The wood is similar to what has been described above.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Here in Missouri, Osage Orange is often called either Ironwood or more commonly Hedgewood. I think it was once known as Boise de Arc…

You know,

To make a whistle, you don’t need much wood. If you can find an ironwood tree, you could just prune a few medium sized branches and have wood for several whistles without having to sacrifice the tree.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Jerry, perhaps that’s true abt. pure tung oil. I’ll have to look further. It’s just that in the (rather distant and becoming moreso) past, any and all references I ever came across brought up its toxicity, hence my concern.

–Another candidate for whistle wood is American Dogwood. It’s white w/ orangey streaks, hard and very dense. However, I believe it’s not resinous like blackwood and others. Pat Olwell is building a keyless D Pratten-style flute in dogwood for me as a prototype, so I’ll know more later. What with the coloring, though, I probably won’t be bringing it to sessions. :astonished:

At this link, http://www.realmilkpaint.com/oil.html
The following quote is found:
“Pure Tung Oil is recommended for kitchen tables, chopping blocks and boards, and similar uses. Its non-toxic nature makes it particularly appropriate for children’s toys and furniture. It gives good protection to wood panelling and moulding.”
I can’t vouch for its accuracy but it seems pretty definite.
Mike

PS: here’s a little more information from the same site:
“Our 100% Pure Tung Oil is just that, no petroleum distillates or other additives - just Pure Tung Oil. All of our Pure Tung Oils are “fresh” pumped from a drum just before shipping. They are packaged in #2 HDPE recyclable bottles with flip top pour caps - except gallon size which does not have a pour top. We have found these tops make working with the tung oil a very pleasing experience. Be sure to see our exclusive Dark Raw Tung Oil also. Enjoy :slight_smile: