Video of Turlough O'Carolan's Si Bheag Si Mhor

Hi everyone, I am a professional musician and guitar teacher from Montreal. Classical guitar not celtic music is my specialty but one of my students just worked on Turlough O’Carolan’s Si Bheag Si Mhor and we recorded a video of it so I thought I would post here and see what people think of it and hopefully get her some hits on Youtube. The address of the video is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S93qbd5thcs

Maybe some of the guitarists on here might be interested in checking out my website. It has some articles on choosing a guitar teacher, buying a guitar, fingering issues, performance anxiety, etc. There are also some recordings of me playing and videos of me and some of my other students. The address is: http://www.michaelmurrayguitar.com

This seems to happen alot with people from other disciplines: they play Irish music far too slow. You could nearly double the speed of the guitar portion of the Sí Bheag Sí Mhór video. Think bouncy Baroque, not agonizingly slow aires.

djm

After reading your comment I listened to a number of versions on Youtube on various instruments including the original instrument harp. They all seemed to be at a speed similar to or only slightly faster than the speed Chrissy plays it at. The only exception were the solo tin flute versions but solo wind instruments usually play everything a bit faster. Do you have any examples of recordings or videos that play it at the speed you like?

I think it works well both ways.
Nobody knows how these harp tunes were originally played.

Here is a faster version played in a baroque style accompanied by harpsichord and cello.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SzMaImV38Q

Mukade

Nobody knows how these harp tunes were originally played.

In the Bunting collection Andante affetuoso is indicated

Derek Bell (harp) plays this at around MM 180 on Carolan’s Receipt, which is pretty perky. Cormac Breatnach is cranking at around 190. Here it’s closer to 102. I think there’s room for interpretation.

I think a bigger problem here is the phrasing. It’s not quite right, too short. It sounds like she’s “playing the bar lines” instead of phrasing the natural longer contours of the tune. And some extra speed would help overcome the guitar problem of sustaining those notes through the phrases. So the two are related.

But a good start. This stuff is hard on guitar. So more power to her fingers. :slight_smile: Maybe try William Coulter, Steve Baughman for other guitar examples.

I thought it was lovely. We always play this tune quite slowly, possibly more like the andante that Peter refers to. This is a bit slower than that perhaps. This is a tasteful and imaginative interpretation of a piece that we can’t know the intended pace of, if indeed there ever was a single intended pace. The tread is somewhat deliberate in places but a nice, lilting flow will come in time I’m sure. If she did this in our session she’d be a raging success! I’ve always had a real blind spot about Planxty’s version of this on the black album, which always sounds to me like they can’t wait to get it finished, and I love nearly everything else by Planxty.

Here’s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMGX472pMR8%22%3EHere%27s) the Planxty version. This is about as slow as you would ever want to get it. Here they are aiming more for stately, I think. Check out Donal Lunny’s guitar work; more of a musical filigree than just sustained chords.

djm

That sounds better than the original album version.
They messed around with the stereo and the guitar is stuck in one ear for most of the tune.

Also, have a listen to the live version on the Chieftains in China.
Paddy’s pipes sound like a different instrument.

Mukade

Well I like it slow, so there. :stuck_out_tongue:

You can listen to Steve Cooney play Si Bheag Si Mhor at the 1:34 mark in this youtube clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xInuesYrUPA

I have to disagree with the statement that this is as slow as you would ever want it. I don’t mind it at that tempo but it is obviously an instrumental tempo. If it were sung at that speed it would sound terrible. Some people have posted some very interesting comments about the performance in this thread but I don’t really don’t see any convincing arguments for your opinion that the song must be much faster.

Wow, that is a nice arrangement and performance, very guitaristic. Thank you, Dr. F.

Michael, I think what some of the people here are saying is that their preferences are shaped by the examples of well-respected traditional artists performing this traditional tune within the tradition. Or, in the case of Bunting, an acknowledged source. And those carry some weight.

If you disagree, then what’s the basis for your disagreement, beyond a personal sense that it would sound bad? Or an distinction between instrumental tempo and vocal tempo which may or may not hold up in the traditional aesthetic? (And again, I agree that there’s room for interpretation.)

Traditional musicians are used to classically-trained players with little vested in the tradition appropriating repertoire and misinterpreting it. So you’re probably treading on some sensitivities here.

As for Mr. Shaw … he’s a force of nature unto himself. :laughing:

Whatever instrument you play, try it unaccompanied fast, then slow - andante/walking speed, kind of thing. It’s a tune with lots of room inside for expression. Going at it too fast sharply reduces these possibilities. And what’s so wrong with a nice, lilty, laid back, slightly wistful melody in ITM, a relief from the exploits of the reel sharks but not a slow air either? We need more of it!

My italian is not good. Does this mean
eating half cooked pasta will make you so fat
or
tenderly at moderately slow speed
or
bouncy bouncy?

I wouldn’t say Martin Hayes plays too slow. Anyway he is not from another discipline.


(yeah, yeah! I know he is a fiddle player. Try and clare your focus and see my point).

Baroque! Why there’s a discipline within a discipline!
:laughing:

Firstly let me say that although Chrissy has studied guitar with me for a long time she did not work on this song with me. She lives in Ottawa where I taught for a long time but travel to more and more infrequently and I only teach her when I am in Ottawa. She just finished her first year of studying guitar and voice at university and has both another guitar teacher and a voice teacher. She also mentioned that she worked on the Irish pronunciation with someone and I am not sure whether this was her voice teacher or a third person. I have no idea what background her other teachers have in Irish music. My role in this song was that she wanted to play me her end of year exam material during a lesson and I liked the song and suggested that we video it. I mention this to avoid any impression that I am upset at criticism of my interpretation of the piece as I can neither take the credit nor blame for what is good and bad in her interpretation.

I did indeed ask for comments about her interpretation as I was interested in what Irish music afficionados would think about it. In general I was pleased with the comments (including yours MTGuru) and if I do end up working with her on the piece in the future I will take them into consideration. It is certainly possible that I would ask her to speed up as well though not to the point advocated by djm. Most of the posters were also fairly open minded as to the speed and possibilities of differing interpretations of a music we have little information about how it was intended to be performed. What bothers me about djm’s comments is that they are very dogmatic and implies that he knows how this music should be performed. The only evidence he presents is a recording by Planxty that he likes. Yet I can find many examples of other Irish music specialists playing the piece much slower. I don’t have a problem with speed of the Planxty version (speed about 175-180) or djm’s preferrence for it being played fast but I do have a problem with being told this is the only way to play the piece.

Now let’s look at the case for playing it slower. You mentioned the Bunting which I understand is the earliest source of this song. The Bunting has the Andante affetuoso indication which means play at moderate pace with affection (or emotion). The interpretations in the 180 range are certainly far from andante. The affetuoso indication if anything usually slows down the andante. I will not claim that the Bunting indication is 100% infallible given I don’t know if this speed indication came from O’Carolan or Bunting but I certainly find it hard to accept a claim that the piece must be played fast when the earliest source for it says otherwise.

Then we have the issue of the nature of the song. Is it dancelike as played by Planxty or more of a ballad? Given that it has words, talks about a serious subject (war/conflict/death) I would suggest that a ballad style is more appropriate. Additionally, we know that the text of the music was very important to Carolan. This ties in to the question of vocal practice. Regardless of style (with a few exceptions like classical virtuoso opera arias) vocal music tends to be slower than instrumental. This is because singers need time to breathe and need time to enunciate the words properly. Additionally, the audience needs to be able to understand the words of the song, particularly in songs like this one in which a story is being told. Let’s also remember that although the majority of people listening to the song today do not understand Irish gaelic, Carolan was writing for an audience that was fluent in Irish gaelic.

I must also mention that some of the examples posted in this thread are far from authentic. For all the suggestion that other musicians are unable to interpret Irish music properly, Cormac Breatnach’s version is far from the way the music was intended to be played. It indeed sounds far closer to French baroque chamber music than traditional Irish music. I would suggest the speed he plays it at has a lot to do with him being accompanied by a harpsichord, an instrument without sustain and which thus sounds better when it is played fast. I am not claiming that Cormac Breatnach is wrong to play the song like this or that his interpretation is invalid (it is certainly possible that some people did play the piece like this in the parlours during Carolan’s lifetime) but I find it hard to imagine this is very close to Carolan’s original conception of the piece.

This debate reminds me a lot of what happened in Baroque and Classical era music in the 90’s. A branch of the period instrument movement started to play extremely fast and aggressive versions of Baroque and Classical music which they dogmatically claimed was the proper way despite presenting very little convincing evidence. To the majority of musicians these tempos sounded wrong. I personally think this style of playing had far more to do with the 90’s aesthetic than Baroque practice. However, I don’t deny these musicians their right to interpret the music how they please, but I have the right to my opinion about it and do not like people telling me they are doing it the right way. I don’t think it is wrong to play different styles of music in a non-authentic way although I think in most styles the unsuccessful attempts greatly outnumber the successful. However, even in trying to do a more authentic interpretation of a piece there is a great deal of flexibility in interpretation. Let’s not forget that even when they were alive, all great composers whether Bach or Carolan probably heard some extremely different interpretations of their music from various musicians.

Different interpretations of a musical piece, no matter the composer reminds me of story from a few years ago. I was attending a concert of a major symphony who was featuring Gustav Holst’s, “The Planets”. The renown conductor related that as he was approaching work one day about midway through preparing for this concert, he heard “The Planets” on the local PBS station. As he listened to this piece, he thought, “what a horrible interpretation of such a beautiful work.” He decided to stay in the car and listen to the whole piece so as to find out who the conductor was. Imagine his suprise when this was the London Philharmonic conducted by…GUSTAV HOLST! :astonished: All music is open for interpretation. It is up to the listener to decide if it good.

An excellent and thoughtful post there, Michael. The great thing about traditional Irish is that it is open to all manner of interpretation, and I have heard many pieces played in two completely different ways both of which I liked and felt had much to offer. Obviously there are lines to be drawn somewhere but Chrissie did not step over any with this piece. As for Baroque and Classical pieces, these will often have tempo indications provided by the composer. Straying away from these too far will make your playing sound mannered and self-regarding to the ears of listeners who are used to more conventional tempos. I do think it’s OK to see them as indications and not as a laying-down of the law, but I think the limits of acceptibility are more precise. Who’s right or wrong there is up for grabs, and it’s often surprising to go back to the composer’s original intentions which in some cases have been ignored for decades or even centuries. Forty or fifty years ago there was a tendency (or even the accepted convention) to play the first movement of the Eroica symphony, for example, at a pretty slow and stately tempo. Klemperer was regarded as a great Beethoven interpreter but I think Ludwig would have turned in his grave at some of the almost funereal speeds he employed. When the original-instruments movement got going conductors went back to the original scores and were far more scrupulous when it came to the composers’ tempo markings. It was like a breath of fresh air to hear pieces as the composers themselves envisaged them (once the fiddles had got in tune :laughing: ), and, for me, all that received wisdom about “adding stateliness and majesty” by slowing things down (and having vast orchestras that the composers couldn’t have dreamed about) was blown out of the water and seen for the threadbare thing it really was. It was more about the big egos of the maestros than anything else. All that sounds like a plea for faster playing, which it is nothing of the sort of course!

Sorry if I upset you. I am relating how I have heard the piece played, and more by traditional players than modern interpretations by modern players. Even Bunting in the 19th century expressed concerns with people from other genres playing traditional Irish airs too slow. O’Carolan did not write anything down, so there is nothing to refer to earlier than Bunting, which came years afterwards.

There are no O’Carolan lyrics to the tune as far as I know. These too were added afterwards. I did say that it was the guitar part I thought was too slow, not the sung part.

You asked for comments, and the speed aspect was the only thing I disagreed with, but as you can see here, there are many opinions and tastes, so I don’t know why you would take mine as being “dogmatic”. I would not want to discourage your pupil in any way, and had intended my input as being constructive, and not in any way misconstrued as “the law”.

djm

Sídh Beag agus Sídh Mór was the 1st song allegedly composed by the young Toirdhealbhach O Cearbhalláin at the age of 21yrs. (1691) for, Squire Reynolds in Lough Scur.

This topic raises one or two interesting points.

Bunting is not the only source for O’Carolan.
Indeed much earlier exist.
O’Carolan as far as we know did not transcribe music so by definition everything we have is an arrangement.
His son John had some MSS and John and William Neale Published in 1724 and Dan Wright in c1740.
Both much nearer to O’Carolan who died in 1738,than Buntings 1st Publication in 1796.
Bunting did not transcribe frae O’Carolan as ye can see but had the job of doing so frae harpers in Belfast in 1792.
This was the last great gathering of the old harpers and the transcriptions by Bunting would most likely have been arrangements in themselves.
Possibly not but at this great distance in History tis impossible to say.
What is certain is that O’Carolan wasnae there to correct Bunting if needed.

It may be worth remembering that O’Carolan combined the ancient bardic tradition with contemporary traditional dance music and most heavily with Italian composers particularly Corelli.So three for the price of one.
This does not fit in neatly with “traditional” Irish Music. Hence the trap of falling into either one camp(Baroque) or the other(Traditional).His music was mostly hybrid so doesnae sit with the dogma thus far postated.


In O’Sullivans book(1958) on Carolan we have the somewhat Anglicised Irish of “Sheebeg and Sheemore” in Andantino which allows the tune to be played somewhat slower than Andante or somewhat faster.. as ye please.

I do not know the veracity of the statement that the words were added to this particular piece later as it would seem to fly in the face of O’Carolans’ modus ,he was after all an accomplished poet.
Given that in his own time it was recognized as the 1st song he had composed it would not be presumptuous in the absence of other facts to conclude that the words came wi the music otherwise it would have been a tune and not a song.

That as may be, the song was written in the very year of total chaos in Ireland , of Civil War and great carnage, coming on the heels of Aughrim and Limerick .
This particular piece refers to the wars of the Sídhe of old, and Fionn Mac Cubhaill and his Fianna are associated with the legend.
The Sighbrugha(fairy palaces) in question are Motes in Co.Leitrim Sidh Mór is588ft high and Sidh Beag is 479ft and has on its summit a monument to Fionn.

I would imagine these where far frae happy times and the subject matter may well be a reference to the contemporary wars being fought around him…



Ó imreas mór tháinig idir na ríona,
Mar fhíoch a d’fhás ón dá chnoc sí,
Mar dúirt an tsí mhór go mb’fhearr í féin,
Faoi dhó, faoi dhó ná’n tsí bheag.
“Ní raibh tú ariamh chomh huasal linn,
I gcéim dar ordaíodh i dtuath nó i gcill,
Beir uaim do chaint, níl suairceas ann,
Is coinnigh do chos is do lámh uainn.”

“Choiche ní bhfaighfidh sibh bua ar chách,
Ar muir, ar tír ná 'n iomarbhá,
B’fhearr an chídh 'bheith 'déanamh síth
Ná fógairt cogaidh i láthair.”
Tráth chruinnigh na sluaite, bhí an bualadh teann.
Ar feadh na machaireacha 'nonn is anall,
's ní raibh aoinne ariamh dar ghluais on mbinn,
Nár chaill a cheann san ár sin.

Is é sin an cath do chráigh ár gcroí,
Na prionsaí sí ar gach taobh
Tuatha Dé Danann ag teacht ‘na scaoth’
's nach iontach saolta an t-ár sin.
Is ansin do cailleadh na ríthe sí,
Na mílte díobh ar gach taobh
Ní raibh ach bruíon do scrios an Traoi,
Le méid an áir an lá sin.

Pairlí, pairlí, a chairde gaoil,
Sin chugaibh ár namhaid ó
Charn Chlann Aoidh,
Ó Bhinn Eachlainn aníos na sluaite díobh,
Is bímis uile uile páirteach.

Atá siad anois is ariamh dhá rá,
An cogadh is lú go milleann a lán,
Gur fearr an tsíth is measa dlí
Ná bailte is tíortha a bhánú.
'sé an t-éad ar dtðs do dhíbir slua,
's chuir na mílte i gcarcair chrua,
Is fearr an chóir bheith buan go deo,
Ná bráithre a ghríosu in árach.


Oh, great strife came between the kings,
Feuds grew between their Hills, because
Big Hill folk spoke too well of themselves
While Small Hill burned beneath them.
“You can never share rights to our noble lake.
Go into ranks by tribe or town.
Carry your blemish away from us.
Be happy to keep your hands and feet.”

“You cannot always win every fight
On lake, on land, when we contend.
It would be good if you made peace instead of ordering wars in here.”
Time to gather the hosts, make a striking force.
From throughout the plains, they come marching here.
It will never seem right to die for hills,
Beheaded in that slaughter.

This is why battle pains our hearts:
With Hill Princes on every side, and Tuatha De Danann come in a swarm,
The slaughter is not surprising.
Then it is that the Hill Kings lost
The thousands killed on every side.
There was no dwelling not destroyed
In all the killing that day.

“Parley, parley, oh friends and kin!
Our enemy from Cairn Clann Aoidh,
Comes from Eachlainn Peak, up our dead troops!”
Now everyone fights together.

Now none ever will say twice,
“War isn’t caused by too much pride.”
Peace is as good as wars were bad.
The towns in both lands are rebuilding.
Envy first, then an eager host,
Then thousands prisoners in the grave
Better eat words almost forever
Then have angry brothers on their biers.



The verses were originally in 9,4 and 3 quatrains respectively and the tune properly requires an 8 line verse.

Imreas mór tháinig eidir na rioghna
Mar fhioch a d’fhás ón dá chnoc sidhe;
Mar adubbhairt an tSidh mhór go mb’fhearr í féin
Faoi dhó,faoi dhó ná an tSidh bheag.
An tráth chruinnigh na sluaighte bhi an buala teann
Ar feadh na machaireacha annon’s anall;
'S nil aon ariamh dár ghluais ón mbinn
Nár chaill a chionn san ár sin.

The above verse was chosen by O’Sullivan as the best suited of them to fit the melody.

This is not unusual wi O’Carolan and suggests that the words where meant to be recited over the music and not sung.

Given the subject matter translated above I cannot for the life o me imagine this as a “bouncy Baroque” number but I can quite easily translate it into a very sad slow lament.The more I think about it the more convinced I am that it is indeed worthy of the appellation Slow Air in the finest tradition of Séan Nós.

Why didnae Chrissy finish the verse?Up to line 4 then stop?shame…
I actually like her version and would encourage her to continue maybe try it as a recital wi music.Anyways fair play to her.

So who is right and who is wrang?Only Toirdhealbhach can answer that :wink:
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam
PS
David wrote
so I don’t know why you would take mine as being “dogmatic”
Perhaps this is why…ye wrote
This seems to happen alot with people from other disciplines: they play Irish music far too slow. … Think bouncy Baroque, not agonizingly slow aires.

:wink: :heart: :heart: :thumbsup: Love and peace to ye all