According to Wooff, Craig Fischer, etc., Egan’s instruments are a shade larger in bore than his peers from the flat set days. But they are still very quiet in comparision to the typical Taylor instrument. Some Taylor chanters are very much smaller in bore and holes than what the Rowsomes built later, too. Craig told me the Taylor drones he’d seen were much like Egan, too - more cylindrical overall - Kenna/Coyne/Harrington have more of a conical shape, which gives a more harmonic-rich sound.
Anyways. OK, pipers did play on English stages in some instances. Nevertheless I think the Taylors developed the wide bore in America. O’Neill repeats the standard account of them doing so in response to demands from variety/vaudeville musicians. Many of the Taylor sets are known by their original owner, and most often these were pipers in America. Most of the sets have turned up in America. Clancy’s set was sent back from America. The Goodman and George McCarthy sets are about the only Taylors in Ireland that may have been made on-the-spot. As I mentioned I’ve always wondered what the Taylors were up to before emigrating.
To give a further push to what Jim has noted above, (which I agree with!), is the fact that Kerrigan, himself, used a “Concert pitch” double chanter, perhaps to get more projection over, or through, the crowd, depending on where he was seated. I.E. On stage, or on the floor of his establishment. FitzPatrick, and several other Irish Pipers in the 19th century USA ,had these double chanters.
I have alot of experience with the “double” chanter bagpipes in my collection, (but not with an Irish double chanter of my own, sad to say).
I have played these “other ethnics” in a number of "public"environments, and I have noticed that many of them increase the “preceived volume” by almost TWICE (40-45%), over the amount of volumne of just one of the chanters sounding by itself. It’s really noticable, when one reed cuts out while performing. This loudness, also depends on the cowhorn bells on the far (distal) end of the chanters (E.G. the Tunesian Mezoued or Zukra). Then the volumne starts descending a bit in percentage points, with double chanters with No Bells at All! (E.G. the Croatian Diple and the Iranian Nay-anban, which I just got last year). Finaly moving on to the Irish "D’ and “C” double chanters, some of which I have reeded up for other people, I noticed that the volume of the “C” chanters was THE LOWEST AMOUNT of increase, somewhere in the 15% to 20% range. The higher pitch, around “D-Eb” DOES increase this a bit (20%-25%) and that’s with the IDEAL Situation: chanter reeds, bores, and finger holes, all in tune with each other. Then there’s the Musette Effect! (named after the French court bagpipe). This is also called “WET TUNING” among Accordion makers and players, who have their same pitch, doubled up free reeds, tuned apart from each other, by 5 cents (that’s the ideal, some Accordions are more OUT/or even UNDER WATER), this “alternate feature” of these Irish double chanters,increases their sound distance in a slightly different way, I.E. ,the Piper’s Music “stood out” due to the beating, “out of phase,” double chanter sound. Now, this “double chanter” use was started, as near as I can tell, during the early 19th century, the “Union Pipe” era, and continued on with the BIG BORE pipes in the USA. This trend for more volumne (not unique to pipers!), occured at the same time the romantic, “Celtic” neverland (see the popular “Children of the Mist” stage plays, of which, Oscar and Malvina, is a version) was being developed, in the early 1800s. The lands of those “aboridginal” simple children, had been made safe for tourists, as a result of military conquest, and continued vilgilance (1745-46 in Scotland, 1798 in Ireland). This kept the “Irish Question” in the forefront of the public mind of England, and Thomas Moore found a receptive drawing-room audience, for his songs, among the Liberal “Whigs”, and enlisted their sympathies for these poor, but musicaly interesting, Irish primatives. In the Music Hall, the “Stage Irishman” of Shakespeare, enjoyed a renewed lease on life and provoked further developement, with the Irish comedian doing a finale to the “turn” (time on stage) by going into the “Breakdown” by dancing to some kind of music, done on Pipes and Fiddles, if a “Pit” orchestra wasn’t available. How many of these stage pipers had double chanters? We will never know, but we can start counting the number of pipers with them, in O’Neill, and it is a small, but significant percentage of Taylor double chanters that I have seen, over all these 35 years, that suggest to me that above all… people play Irish bagpipes and want, sometimes, to be heard!
Sean Folsom
Ack, I forgot all about double chanters. Those bad boys go back a ways, isin’t there a Kenna set in an English museum with a stamped double? The Hugh Doherty pipes, if I remember correctly. There’s an M. Egan double in the Smithsonian, there’s a Coyne double chanter set somewheres or another. And lots of anonymousers, maybe you’ve got much of the Taylor’s work right there. They certainly made a lot of them later on - the fully keyed model they developed, that is. Beatty, Pat Ward, Cummings, Fitzpatrick. Jim Lundt’s pipes. Lotta sticks!
In fact I’d bet the double chanter impeded the development of the wide bore for a good long while.
I’ve heard a handful of Pat Fitzpatrick’s sides - thanks again, Jim! - he recorded with the single chanter as it happens.
I always thought Musette tuning refered to the Parisian accordion sound. Not my line of expertise! Does the M. de couer have a soggy quality somewhere? I was listening to the Cooley LP, I gotta ask Jeremey Kammerer what was wrong with Joe’s box there. Sounds like he was stepping on hamsters occasionally!
Oui! Les Musettes de Cours (apogee was 1675) were bagpipes, with a name which means “out-of- tune” …to accordionists! The “Musette” music was made by the country people from the Auvergne, moving from the South of France to Paris (where the money was/is), dropping the Vielle a Roue (hurdy gurdy), and picking up that new fangled melodeon, or continental chromatic (3 or 5 row), which they could now purchase BECAUSE they had good paying JOBS(BULOTS). This was between World Wars 1 and 2 (1919 and 1939) The Auvergne Chabrette bagpipe hung in there, played with the accordeon, often 2 Chabrettes, to balance out the Accordeon and these pipes added just the right amount of “Country”& “Southern”, to the Parisian country dance hall craze! Two of those pipes out of tune, plus the MUSETTE accordeon, I THINK THAT’S A LOT OF “BEATING” RIGHT THERE!
In my opinion, I think the "D"wide bore single chanter, and the “D” double chanter with TWO narrow bores, are only slightly different in the tone, not the volumne, department. Typicaly pipers had “both arrows in their quivers”. Consider the modern instrumentalists, with their “must haves”!
As the pipes passed from owner to owner, the loose, (unplugged into the chanter stock) chanter would get lost, or split up, to different buyers.
I’m saying this, as some of the Taylor double chanters I’ve met up with, are “without the body” (the rest of the set), lonely orphans, in a hostile-to-pipes world…(Opening line for the T.V. show “As The Chanter Turns”)
I always tell accordion players who look at me cross-eyed as being the offending out-of-tune player at the session, “When was the last time you had your accordion tuned?..20 years ago?” “It needs some attention now ,'cause it’s slipped down to A=435!” It’s an irritation to me, struggling to be at A=440, and get that look from a guy with metal reeds, in a box covered with plastic and coupler switches, that dominates the music with that "Musette"tuning, to call MY PITCH into question…ah the battle of the______! Sean____G____Folsom
What about Scottish and Irish Stages?? 
probably far more than we are giving credit for.I really do not have a problem with the hypothesis of Taylors making /developing concert pitch in the States ..why shouldnae they..thats where they were living when they were exposed to the need for louder instruments.
I would like to take this a step further and ask the question.. How much effect did the American Pitch have on the developement of Taylors pipes?I suspect Rowesome tuned to an American Harmonium that is why a lot of his stuff is sharp..I came across the following list of pitches relevent to the period we are talking about and it is interesting to note that Steinway in New York in 1879 used a tuning fork for his pianos at A=457.2 much sharper than the European models..here is the chart…
CHRONOLOGICALLY ARRANGED TUNING LEVELS FOR
EARLY PIANOS
EXTRACTED FROM THE RESEARCH OF ALEXANDER J. ELLIS By comparing the date and place of a piano’s manufacture to the information given below, at least a general indication of the correct tuning level can be determined. It is clear that much research still needs to be done on the history of musical pitch in the United States.
YEAR PITCH PLACE & SOURCE
c. 1715 A= 419.9, England. Crude tenor fork, possibly made by John Shore, the inventor of the tuning fork.
c.1740-1812 A= 424.1, Eutin, Germany. Tuning fork owned by Franz Anton von Weber, father of Carl Maria von Weber.
c. 1750 A= 424.3, London. “Common music shop fork.”
1751 A=422.5, London. Handel’s tuning fork. The box which contains the fork bears the inscription: “This pitchfork was the property of the Immortal Handel and left by him at the Foundling Hospital, when the Messiah was performed in 1751.”
c.1754 A= 422.6, Lille, France. Tuning fork found in the workshop of M. Francois, musical instrument maker.
1754 A=415, Dresden. Fork used to tune the catholic church organ built by G. Silbermanmn.
1776 A= 414.4, Breslau. Marpurg’s pitch for clavichord tuning.
1780 A= 421.3, Vienna. Tuning fork of the Saxon organ builder Schulz who lived in Vienna during Mozart’s lifetime.
1780 A=421.6 Vienna. Tuning fork used by the piano builder Stein. The fork was inherited by his son-in-law Streicher who Ellis calls “the present great pianoforte maker.” A= 421.6 is probably the pitch which Mozart used to tune his fortepianos and clavichords.
1780 A= 422.3, Dresden. Tuning fork in the possession of Dresden court organist Kirsten.
1783 A=409, Paris. Fork of Pascal Taskin, Paris Court tuner.
1796 A= 436, St. Petersburg. Giuseppe Sarti’s measurement of the pitch of the St. Petersburg opera. Chladni in his book on acoustics mentions that this pitch was “very high.”
c. 1800 A= 422.7, London. From an old tuning fork belonging to the
Broadwood piano makers.
c.1810 A=430.0, Paris. Tuning fork belonging to M. Lemoine, a “celebrated amateur.”
c.1820 A=433, London. "Pitch approved by Sir George Smart, conductor of the Philharmonic. "
1823 A= 424.2, Paris. Spontini’s tuning fork for the Paris Italian Opera.
c.1825-1830, A= 435. Dresden. Tuning fork owned by Kapellmeister Reissiger.
c.1826 A=427.2, London. Old fork belonging to the Broadwood piano makers.
c.1826 A=427.6, London. An old fork belonging to the Broadwood Co.
1826. A=428.4, London. An old fork belonging to the Broadwood Co.
1829 A=425.5, Paris. Pitch of the piano at the opera.
1829 A= 434, Paris. Tuning fork used by the piano maker M. Montal.
1834 A=441.8, Berlin. orchestra and opera.
1834 A= 436.5, Vienna. Pitch given by Scheibler as one of the tuning standards for the Vienna Opera.
c. 1834 A=445.1, Vienna. The highest fork which Scheibler measured in Vienna and to which he attributed the “monstrous growth in the upswing in musical pitch.”
c. 1834 A= 434, Paris. Pitch of the Paris opera.
c.1834 A=433.9, Vienna. Orchestra fork measured by Scheibler and referred to as “Vienna minimum.”
1834 A=440.2, Stuttgart. Congress of Physicists, based on Scheibler’s proposal of “the mean of the variation of Viennese grand pianos by temperature.” Scheibler was the first person to recommend the adoption of A=440 as a standard pitch for piano tuning. The piano builder J.B. Streicher in Vienna began to include the indication “440” on his soundboard labels shortly after 1834.
c. 1834 A=443.2, Vienna. Streicher’s fork as measured by Scheibler.
1836 A=443.3, Paris. Tuning fork for pianos built by Woelfel in Paris.
1836-39: A= 441, Paris. Opera pianos. Tuning fork owned by M. Leibner who tuned the pianos of the opera at the pitch of the orchestra. In 1849 it agreed precisely with the oboe of M. Vorroust.
1839 A=425.8, Bologna, Italy. Tuning fork used by Tadolini, the best piano tuner in Bologna, Italy.
1839 A=448, Hamburg. Opera pitch.
Date unknown. A=440.5, Paris. Opera. Fork said to have been adjusted by Pleyel.
1845 A=439.9, Turin Italy. Tuning fork.
1845 A=446.6, Milan, Italy. Tuning fork.
1845 A=445.4, Vienna. Fork used at the Vienna Conservatory.
1849-54 A=445.9, London. Broadwood piano company’s original
medium pitch tuning fork belonging to tuner Alexander Finlayson, who died in 1854.
1852-1874 A= 452.5, London. Average pitch of the Philharmonic Orchestra under the direction of Sir Michael Costa (1846-54). Broadwood’s tuner Mr. J. Black tuned to this pitch. Broadwood retained this pitch for concerts until 1874 when it was raised to A=454.7.
1854 A=446, Paris. Fork used to tune Pleyel pianos.
1854 A=450.5, Lille, France. Opera orchestra.
1856 A=446.2, Paris. Opera pitch. From a tuning fork sent to the French Society of Pianoforte makers.
1856 A=446.2, The Hague, Holland. Conservatory of music pitch. Fork sent to the French commission.
1857 A=448.4, Berlin. Opera. Tuning fork sent by the conductor Taubert to the French Society of Pianoforte makers.
1857 A=444.9, Naples. San Carlo opera theatre tuning fork sent to the French Society of pianoforte makers by E. Guillaume, conductor of the opera orchestra.
1859 A=443.5, Braunschweig, Germany. opera orchestra pitch. Fork sent to the French Commission by Kapellmeister Franz Abt.
1859 A=444.8, Turin, Italy. Opera orchestra. Tuning fork sent to the French Commission by director M. Coccia.
1859 A=444.8, Weimar. Orchestra fork sent to the French Commission.
1859 A=444.8, Württemburg, Germany. Fork of the concert orchestra.
1859 A=435, Karlsruhe, Germany. Pitch at the German opera. Kapellmeister Jos. Strauss felt that this pitch fatigued his singers the least and was the best pitch for the performance of operas from all periods. Strauss’ fork became the pitch standard for the French Commission’s Diapason Normal.
1859 A=435.3, Paris. Fork representing the French Commission’s Diapason Normal Pitch. Presented by the Commission to John Broadwood & Sons Piano Co. in London.
1859 A=435.4, Paris. The French Commission Diapason Normal as actually constructed by Secretan and preserved at the Paris conservatory.
In the United States this pitch was sometimes called “International pitch.” It was recommended by Chickering in Boston as the ideal pitch for tuning Chickering pianos.
1859 A=435.34 Paris. Secretan made a dozen tuning fork copies of the French Diapason Normal. Excluding one of these forks which is clearly too flat, A=435.34 is the general average pitch of the other eleven forks.
1859 A=441, Dresden. Opera. Tuning fork sent to the French Commission by Kapellmeister Reissiger, who wrote: The great elevation of the diapason destroys and effaces the effect and character of ancient music, of the masterpieces of Mozart, Gluck and Beethoven.
1859 A=446, Budapest. Opera.
1859 A=448, Liege, Belgium. Conservatory of music tuning fork.
1859 A=448, Lyons, France. Opera orchestra tuning fork.
1859 A=448.1, Munich, Germany. Opera tuning fork.
1859 A=448.8, Leipzig, Germany. Conservatory of music fork.
1859 A=449.8, Prague. Pitch of the opera orchestra.
1859 A=456.1, Vienna. Sharp Vienna pitch from a fork in the possession of the Streicher Piano Co. The Viennese orchestral pitch as used before the introduction of the French Diapason Normal.
1860 A=445.5, London. Copy of Broadwood’s medium pitch fork made for the society of the arts.
1860 A=448.4, London. Society of the Arts tuning fork.
1862 A=437.8, Dresden. Court theatre.
1862 A=445, Vienna. Piano pitch based on the tuning fork of Kapellmeister Proch. The opera tuned during this period at A=466.
1862 A=454, Vienna. Piano pitch based on tuning fork owned by Kapellmeister Esser. (Compare this pitch with the one above from the same period.)
1869 A=443.1, Bologna, Italy. Liceo Musicale.
1869 A=448.2, Leipzig, Germany. Tuning fork used by the Gewandhaus orchestra.
1874 A=454.7, London. Fork representing the highest pitch used in Philharmonic concerts. Used as the highest pitch used by the Broadwood Piano Co.
1876 A= 446.7, London. Concert pitch.
1877 A=449.9, London. Standard fork used by Collard piano Co.
1877 A=454.1, London. From a tuning fork used by Hipkins to tune for the Crystal Palace concerts.
1878 A=446.8, Vienna. Opera pitch.
1878 A=448.1, London. Tuning fork made by Walker.
1878 A= 436, London. Standard pitch of church organs taken from Metzler’s tuning fork.
1878 A=445.1, London. Society of Arts pitch.
1878 A=449.9, London. Covent Garden opera orchestra during performance as measured by Hipkins.
1878 A=451.9, London. British army regulations. Pitch for wind instruments.
1879 A=445.5, London. Her Majesty’s opera orchestra during performance from a fork made by Hipkins.
1879 A=449.7, London. Pitch of the opera orchestra at Covent Garden during performance.
1879 A=454.7, London. Tuning fork used by Steinway & Sons to tune pianos in London.
1879 A= 455.3, London. From a tuning fork representing the concert pitch used by the Erard Piano Company.
1879, A=457.2, New York. From a tuning fork used by Steinway & Sons!
1880 A=444.9, London. Her majesty’s opera. From a tuning fork of the theatre as measured by Hipkins.
1880 A=446.2, London. Tuning fork used by John Broadwood and Co for in house tunings but not for public concerts.
…
Note the highlighted tuning forks are both Steinway.
In 1878 A= 436, London.The Standard pitch of church organs ,given that the Taylors were organ builders,could this have been the pitch they were working to prior to emigration?
Of course the flat sets couldnae be heard very well we are told so by O’Neill but could the very different Pitch Levels be a contributory factor ?? 
Thoughts please..
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam
My understanding is that many Taylor sets are in fact flat of modern concert pitch. (This may have changed over time, or the Taylors may have tuned instruments to suit individual customers.)
Bill I don’t have a clue as I’ve never heard a an original set,that’s why I was posing the question.There is no doubting Rowesomes being sharp..was he copying Taylor or going his own way..any ideas? Throughout the 1870’s and into the 80’s everything is sharp of Modern Concert apart frae the organ tuning..so was Taylor tuning to his organ pitch(flat) and if he didnae why did he not go with the trend which was sharp and more so in America?
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam
Taylor chanters are always sharp of 440.
Thankyou Jim that makes more sense.
Uilliam
Jim, this contradicts information I have on the Cummings set.
UIlliam, the standard in London was quite sharp in the early 20th century as well. Brass bands were very sharp, though London Philharmonic pitch is a good guess for Willie Rowsome and early Leo stuff. Note that “London Philharmonic Pitch” itself varied a great deal in the preceding 100 years. Here are some examples of pitch standards…
http://www.sfoxclarinets.com/chronology.html
Basically there were two broad pitch ranges (more actually) competing from about 1850 to 1930, which were sometimes referred to as “low pitch” and “high pitch” (though there were plenty of specific standards set locally during that period, and by various orchestras, piano manufacturers, etc.). Low pitch has been creeping upwards from about A=415 (i.e. what we might call ‘C sharp’ today) but was still flat of 440, in the approx A=430 range. “High pitch” was in the A=450 to A=455 range.
Terry McGee has a nice diagram here http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/eng_pitch.html giving a few examples of pitch in use in England. As far as I have ever heard, the general trend in the US followed that in England during this period, as classical music in America was still taking a lot of its cues from English-speaking Europe.
This has all been hashed out on this list before…
Bill
Kirk Lynch told me George Balderose’s Taylor plays best about A=435. Jim Lundt told me his set (case has metal label that says “Taylor Brothers”) has D, D double chanter, and C# chanters. The Brennan chanter measurements have two Taylor doubles at 14 5/8", which is a bit long for modern D, never mind sharp. But then Wooff’s narrow bore Ds are 14 9/16". Who’d you hear from about Taylors playing flat, Bill?
The sharp pitch was favored by orchestras for “brilliance.” Lots of info on pitch standards at various flute websites, like Terry McGee’s. A=453 was called Old Philharmonic pitch, used in the Eastern US. Sharpness would add to the carrying power of an instrument like the pipes. English flutemakers favored instruments with much larger fingerholes and bores than their continental counterparts, too, perhaps the Taylors were inspired by these flutes as well.
Many, yes, but not all. Cummings and Scott, flat for sure. The owner of the Cummings set reports that the double comes out right at A440. I have heard and played it flatter than that, as well.
The Cummings set has a double chanter. I am talking about single chanters.
We were talking about Baroque versus Concert Pitch then.This is an entirely new ball game and I am finding it interesting.Thanks for the Graph on High and Low that was good.
Uilliam
High Pitch Stands Out! I used to talk to the old jazzmen of the 20s,30s, and 40s, before routine electronic amplification, these musicians would slide the “lead” pipe (with the mouthpiece cup plugged into it), further in on the Trumpet, and the mouthpiece on the Saxophone was “screwed in” further up the cork, on the crook or lead-pipe of those instruments. This would make the "Sharp Sax"stand out above the band, as the human ear can stand sharpness more than flatness, this was an acceptable way to play a “Solo” back then. Now the Baaaagggpipes: With the Scots’ Pipe Bands competing against each other, the sharper pitched bands were winning more and more titles. Thus, the GHB pitch has risen from the 1970s B flat up to an A=477 referenced Bb. This A=477 is now the current limit of the S.B.A. , thanks to the modern electronic tuners/meters, and the bands get points taken off their scores for being over that limit. Now on to the Irish / Uilleann / Union Pipes…As a gigging musician, I have had the (mis) fortune to play those restaurant / musical wallpaper jobs, to provide "atmoshere"or “seen and barely heard”. I found that the murmur of the crowd (sicirus) was at the pitch of C! This crowd HUM, completely covers up the C set (but not the D) that I prefer to play for these jobs. I have talked to speech therapists about this subject, and they say it’s a problem to get people to talk at a comfortable pitch that matches their vocal chords, some of which ARE NOT good for C pitch. Further, I had the misfortune to play at the downstairs “Punch and Judy” stage of the Irish Cultural Center, in San Francisco, with the refridgerators for the bar, right UNDER the stage. The 60 cycle hum of the motors is more or less B to C with the variations in voltage (could this be affecting us to pitch our voices to C ?). The motor HUM was conflicting all night long with the music in all D major (and related keys etc.), and it drove me nuts! I asked an electrical engineer about the history of A / C current in the USA… why the choice of B to C for the hum? He said, (get this!) “The electrical engineers of the period, in the early 20th century..LIKED the SOUND of the HUM at THAT PITCH!” This guy had read this somewhere, but didn’t provide citations, so well-read guys out there, help me out! Note: Electric motor drones could be solar powered…!
Now another reason for pipes in different keys: (and I’m quoting Dennis Brooks here) is that people would SING with the pipes (in alot of countries in Europe, like Hungary, it’s a special subset of folksongs, called “Bagpipe Songs”). Not everybody is comfortable in D, some singers are women, of course, usualy with a “higher voice” than men, and so on. I know it’s a stretch to assume that all our ancestors in Ireland were in B to fit with the “flat sets” (or was it the other way around?) but it’s something to think about, in addition to Tuning Forks, Organ Pipes, Historical Woodwinds (mostly Recorders) dating back to Elizabethan times (second half of the 1500s to 1605 or 6 whatever). All that info isn’t corrolated even now, in 2006, most of it, is in the preserve of Academia. So go and write your Doctoral thesis…Mine will be at the University of Grenada (the island in the Carri-Be-In that we invaded for Pres. Regan, I got a scholarship there but no sheepskin yet) Sean Folsom
I wonder if this consideration was part of the influence that caused concert pipes to settle on D as the preferred pitch? If crowd noise was the impetus to go for wider bores, pipers must have been looking for a pitch that would also aid in their audibility.
djm
Well, concert pitch may have simply been settled on for practical reasons: it was what flute players had already, plus there is a reference to pipers considering a 15" long chanter an ideal (from Brother Gildas’s correspondence). We all know how longer chanters can be a bit of a chore to handle. Shorter lengths may have been too hard on the ears.
This was all carried out pre-electrification too, unless you’re an acolyte of Erich Von Daniken and the like. Aren’t there studies that people’s pitch is changing over time, too?
One of my only gigs was a wedding on a riverboat, with an engine in Eb. D pipes. Grrkkk.
“In England I saw three tuning forks, enclosed in a special box, which were used by a Broadwood Piano Co. tuner around 1850. The forks were used for piano tuning in different settings. Broadwood’s low pitch equalled A=433 and was close to the A=435 pitch recommended by a French commission in 1859. Broadwood’s medium pitch was 445 and the highest fork was tuned to A=454. Generally singers preferred low pitch, the medium pitch was probably used for home tuning and high pitch was used in tuning pianos to the orchestra and in concert settings. In the midst of this chaos, it is little wonder that the establishment of a standard, international compromise pitch soon became desirable.”