Tunes - Songs - is there a difference?

Nothing like ‘song’ (as understood by most folk who call tunes ‘songs’)…

and how does that fit in here ?

It doesn’t really!

When teaching this stuff (with a core selection of Scottish styles and forms* still part of my school curriculum), I tend to talk about ‘instrumental’ and ‘vocal’ music, though I may (for convenience) subdivide into Scots (Scots ballad, bothy ballad) and Gaelic (psalms, waulking song, mouth music/puirt) ‘song’. So I’d describe puirt as a vocal (as well as a dance) form while still being happy to class it as a genre of Gaelic song. And, yes, of course most songs (puirt or otherwise) still have ‘tunes’! :wink:

*Note that 1. the grouping of concepts under ‘KHS i3: Scotland’ on that page is mine and not the exam board’s, and 2. I’ll be revamping much of that site ASAP to reflect the changes (including fewer mandatory listening concepts) coming in with the new ‘Curriculum for Excellence’.

Fair enough. :slight_smile:

Here, though, we do get into somewhat more nuanced English: “Song”, in the way you used it as a general all-encompassing term for vocal music, is never pluralised, nor usually is it preceded by an article (an exception being “the song and dance of [culture]”). Once you pluralise it you refer to vocal musical pieces themselves as discreet entities by whatever definition you use. With that meaning in mind, the non-plural form takes on a preceding article.

How do we keep our heads on straight? :wink:

BTW, Peter, in reference to your more overarching use of the word “song”, I found it was best to go back and edit my post (and your earlier quote of me) to reflect more clearly what I really had in mind. Thank you for that. I would agree with you that in English, the article-less word “song” can rightly refer to all forms of vocal music. :slight_smile:

It is not unusual for new members on the whistle forum (mainly) to use ‘song’ for ‘tune’ . It is rare for them not to be corrected in the first couple of posts and not unusual for the correction to come before the main response to the substance of their post rather than as a friendly “oh and by the way <what Ben said in his first post above>” after the main response. I think in conversation people let things like that pass unless the context makes it confusing. This is really friendly, inclusive sort of place so its a bit odd.

Oh, I see. Yes, I would prefer to see self-restraint on abruptness in that too, because really, it’s uncalled-for. It could be though that those who sound abrupt may not be intending it, at least sometimes. I have to admit I don’t catch it every time, so I’m not sure how frequent or pervasive that kind of delivery is.





You know that irony filter I got for you? Could you switch it on now please?
:smiley:

Switch it on? Hell, I had the dial turned up to 11. Tell you what: you move over to the US, and I’ll move over to the Isles. We’ll give it about five years of immersion, and see if we are any closer to catching each other’s drifts. :laughing:

The Isles? Why would you want to live up there? :confused:

It’s a term you sometimes hear in the States, among tradologists of my stripe in particular, for the UK and Ireland. So in British words: you lot. :wink:

“In other words”???

… first time I’ve seen that phrase used as an adjective …

Anny-hoo …

“The Isles” means something quite specific to us, and radically different from the now politically incorrect “British Isles”. The Isles are off the West coast of Scotland. Ever so far away. And they only appear once every hundred years.

… you edited. Hmph! :moreevil:

You caught me mid-edit, I fear.

[Oops. Cross-post…]

Well, if you’re going to move over to the States for your immersion practice, here’s a good beginning. Get cracking, now. Chop-chop. :wink:

Nah, quite close, really!

And they only appear once every hundred years.

:astonished:

There are times when I feel quite sufficiently immersed right here …

[sigh]

I think he means in the public consciousness. :wink:

Trust me, you do have my sympathy. :slight_smile:

It’s partly what I’d call the “shibboleth factor”, David. You know, an expression that instantly identifies the speaker as an outsider. Here in the US anyway, referring to tunes as songs is one shibboleth. Pronouncing Celtic as “seltic” is another. Maybe calling a fiddle a violin. Referring to a session as a “jam”, or a duo of performers as a “band”. I’m sure there are others.

It’s trivial stuff, indeed. But every group or culture has its own jargon that reflects its uniqueness. Recognizing the vocabulary, and the reasons for it, may be the first minimal step to appreciating other differences that are not so trivial. And making an effort to assimilate the jargon is part of your entry ticket: “Please admit one”.

Unfortunately, for better or worse, insiders can be dismissive. And since part of the purpose of the Chiffboard is educational, better to point out the shibboleths here early and in a supportive context, before a beginner finds himself or herself needlessly embarrassed IRL. I’ve seen it happen, with devastating consequences out of proportion to the slight. Especially with Americans who often find the British and Irish penchant for bluntness quite shocking.

So I think the motivation here is basically positive and helpful, even though it may not always come across that way.

So long as he/you/they aren’t buying into that ‘Brigadoon’ thing… for which you’d deserve to be packed off to a Renaissance/Irish/Scottish fayre to play aires [sic and sic again]! :stuck_out_tongue:

(Edit: originally posted before your addition of winky smiley.)

Except when it’s a football or shinty team! :wink:



This is making me sic.

Yes, I have a bad habit. For some reason the maxim “Preview, then post” just isn’t enough for my mercurial nature. :sniffle:

(Edit: …said the editor to the editor. :smiling_imp: )

Shibboleths, again. One may distinguish Gilead from Ephraim, but which is who is up for debate. :wink:

Have to say I’m getting dizzy too when your (presumed) attempt to dodge the great god C&F’s quadruple-embedded-quote shibboleth has neatly transposed our contributions to that particular exchange! :stuck_out_tongue:

Yes, I have a bad habit. For some reason the maxim “Preview, > then > post” just isn’t enough for my mercurial nature. > :sniffle:

Works particularly well when combined with my preview-the-hell-out-of-it-then-carry-on-editing-after-posting-anyway-while-hoping-that-nobody’s-quoting-promptly tendency! :wink: