This thread is/was spurred on by a conversation with a friend. He was trying to wrap his head around the idea that those selling their pipes (for whatever reason) would for some reason be “afraid” that the pipe maker would catch wind of the sale, and be angry with the former customer.
I can understand a maker not being disappointed with the idea that his instrument is not going to be played by the original customer. Time on the phone, special made orders, etc. A relationship is forged between the buyer and maker… to some degree… sometimes greater, sometimes lesser.
I have fortunate, and infrequently…not so fortunate, over the 25+ years I’ve been a professional musician. I’ve purchased and moved many instruments, for different reasons. My tastes change, or I might’ve outgrown something, etc.
I know of a few makers that get, well … “unbelievably” (that word would be a great descriptive) insulted when their instruments are sold by the original owners.
I’m sure much will be said on this… any brave souls?
The whole pipemaker piper special relationship is a myth. Its the same as car dealer and car buyer ,the car dealer will tell his customer anything he thinks his customer wants to hear and is willing to pay for and its the same for the pipemaker.
Pipemaker are all very nice people and of course they are, they’re trying to get money off you.
The whole pipemaker piper special relationship is a myth.
A bit of a blanket statement if ever there was one. It probably depends more on the pipemaker and the piper involved in any given situation. It’s true though many customers who think it’s fine to turn up on a pipemaker’s doorstep and chat and have tea all day when work should be done take things a bit further than they should and that is definitely a factor that adds stress to the job for quite a few makers.
But I think it’s safe to say at least some pipemakers have a more personal investment in their product compared to your average car dealer. To more than a few it’s a bit more personal than a nine to five job, turning out ‘product’. Try compare the burnout, depression and suicide statistics between the two groups for example, they should tell you something.
Top pipemakers put a lot of energy in customising and setting up their instruments. More often than not tailored to the piper’s needs. It can be , and often is, a physically and mentally exhausting process and it doesn’t seem to get any less with experience, particularly for the makers with a perfectionist streak. I have heard more than one pipemaker talk about their ‘babies’ and it always felt it as only half joking.
I’d say it’s probably just a self-confidence issue on the pipemaker’s part. No need to get insulted if you know your work is great quality. If someone selling their pipes doesn’t want to tell the pipemaker about the sale, they are probably just trying to avoid the possibility that the maker will get hurt.
they are simultaneously commercial products and singular artifacts. I feel it helps alleviate ‘attachment issues’ when the craftsperson has a corporate facade to hide behind. For ex, bassoons are a devil to make, so im told, yet custom as they are, they are given a serial #, listed, paid for /financed, sold, resold, back in for repair, & sold again with no tears or awkward moments at bassoon tionols (or whatever their equivalent is) because the buyer rarely deals directly with the actual producer.
But because ‘alternative’ pipe world is sooo very small, in many cases pipemakers turning out world class pipes spare time in their back sheds, theres precious little overhead for the niceties of a buffer zone. The buyer is forcibly confronted full on with the genius/ expectations/ peculiarities (perhaps even psychosis ) of each individual craft-artist. its a touchy situation !!
Personally I don´t think there is all about money, bearing in mind that in my country UP are not so popular, there aren´t many tutors (say three) a large average of the customers/musicians are far away from tuition, and sometimes they want a set but they still don´t know what kinda beast are they talking about; SO I do my best to let them know all the issues they will fight against even when it cost me one less customer, because if I sell them what they want without any advice focusing just the sale, when they get dissapointed (hehe, everyone wants to put on the set and sound decently by the first time) the maker´s reputation is at risk aldough the blame isn´t real.
There’s a well known maker that told me, “Try it…see how you get on with it, and if you don’t like it… you’ll have no problems moving it.”
Of course, a pipe maker might question himself about his skills, or the sound he is going after, if a well known player, who was once playing his gear, decides to sell it and move to something else (or not?). Most artists are ever changing, and evloving in their tastes… so perhaps, it’s not so unusual to move around, until you find something that really suits you!?!
There are a some very well known players who’ve done just that, too! They were playing a particular maker’s gear, and eventually…they all moved to a particular other maker.
When such a unanimous migration happens, I presume the maker must (or should?) question what he’s doing!? Too, it must be a bit of a kick to the ego as well…
Back to the first example; I think that maker said soemthing to the affect of, “look…when you make and instrument… “baby” or not… you have to set it free, let it go… and also I’ve gotta get a grip on the fact that ultimately… I’m trying to make a living here… really!”
They were playing a particular maker’s gear, and eventually…they all moved to a particular other maker.
You know, there’s the old flavour of the month effect. You’ll find these guys have been moving with ‘the latest’ before the latest move and will move to the next new kid on the block. It’s people watching other pipers and fearing one of the others may get the upper hand (a phrase I have heard used in this context) and then moving to the same piece of kit, just in case. It’s a silly sort of game.
An interesting side effect of the name game are the people who have a set made by a particular maker that is not at all suitable for the style they play. They will move on quickly too.
From the standpoint of the buyer, it’s difficult. It’s not like buying a violin or guitar where you can just walk into a shop that has enough inventory at hand where you can pick the instrument that suits you best.
You place an order, wait, perhaps a very long time, get emotionally invested in the process, perhaps become friends with the maker, and then ultimately, you get what you get, for better or worse. It may or may not be what you were expecting, are ready for, or of the quality or specification you asked for. And you do your best to make it work, often with a lot of support from the maker.
In several cases now I’ve seen complaints about a particular instrument which, given what little I know now, seemed more to do with approach, rather than any huge flaw in the instrument itself. Not saying there is no better or worse, but some chanters are very consistent, and the problem is often technical and can be corrected.
Eventually you get to a point where you can judge for yourself the shortcomings of an instrument, want different or better, and need to move on. For me then, I just sell it (unless it is just a terrible instrument), and try my best not to involve the original maker, who may have a very personal relationship with the instrument. If they ask, I’ll do my best to explain, and if they have a problem with that, there is not much to be done. I’ll now only give critique if they ask and genuinely seem to want it – never gotten anywhere positive with that.
Well… nowadays, the situation is connnnnnnnnsiderably different than it was 5 years ago. There are so many sets up for sale. So, perhaps this list, or the uilleannobsession.com is akin to, or as close as it’ll ever get to “walking into a music store.” I think when you buy 2nd hand, you are essentially exonerated from the syndrome we’re talking about…or not (?).
I understand that if a maker invests 400 total hours+ into completing a full set, and the star player he made if for sells it in a few years… yes that might be frustrating.
This is all quite interesting!
Ultimately, I think there are a myriad of reasons one sells. A maker should fully understand that perhaps the musician will move on and sell the set. I think the most important thing is that the set continues to get played, providing it’s essentially a hassle free instrument e.g. WORKING in all the ways good pipes should.
Now, if you’ve purchased something that is substandard, well then… it has rightfully earned it’s deserved “reward,” and should be put out of it’s misery, and the your’s, alike!
Well… nowadays, the situation is connnnnnnnnsiderably different than it was 5 years ago. There are so many sets up for sale. So, perhaps this list, or the uilleannobsession.com is akin to, or as close as it’ll ever get to “walking into a music store.”
I don’t think it’s quite like that at all. There’s a lot of. let’s say, mid-range stuff going, really top stuff, well, not so much and if it comes up prices are still highly inflated.
It occurs to me that if there’s an ongoing special relationship between a maker and his instrument, his “baby”, there’s no reason that relationship can’t survive the instrument changing hands.
A second (or nth) owner can be every bit as invested in the instrument as the original buyer/owner. Annoyance on the maker’s part is just silly. It’s up the the maker to make clear, by policy or reputation, that the invitation is extended, and up to the new owner to avail themselves of it. The new relationship can be just as rewarding, beneficial, etc. to both parties, if they respect each other’s expectations.
In the whistle world … I’ve bought several instruments on the used market. And one of my first acts of ownership was to contact the maker, introduce myself, report my acquisition, discuss the instrument, and establish a relationship. I’m talking specifically of Michael Copeland and Colin Goldie. In both cases, I was made to feel welcome to the “family” of owners, no less than the original owners. In one case the instrument was treated to an extensive overhaul and customization, gratis. Couldn’t ask for more.
It’s not rocket science. It’s basic personal and professional courtesy and decency. It’s a working relationship, not a marriage. And if a maker resents not being able to keep total control over the destiny of his “baby” once it’s out in the world making its own way, I’d hate to think about his actual children.
Too, the really top stuff, in many cases (as we all know) are from makers who have either closed their books, or have an absurdly long waiting list. So, one can simply look at what paying a premium means A) you can actually GET an instrument, whereas otherwise you couldnt’ even get on the list, and B) you get it NOW!
There’s always a price to pay for near instant gratification w/rare instruments.
There’s always a price to pay for near instant gratification w/rare instruments.
Well, you know, maybe there is, maybe there isn’t.
It’s the excuse often thrown about here anyway.
A few cases of people chatting up makers, getting their pipes and selling them on within six months of purchase at an inflated price is part of the picture of this thread as well I suppose.
And there’s ‘name buying’ people who want, NEED, an instrument by a particular maker, without consideration of the suitability of the instrument for their style, without looking at the instrument on it’s own merit.
It’s the excuse/reasoning everywhere. It makes sense, too. Owners know they have something of value, and in many cases something that is made of “un-obtain-ium,” so they charge accordingly. I think I higher price is reasonable. Price gouging is not. For example, there was a fellow asking 13.5k for a k/q 3/4 set not that long ago. That is gouging! However, to someone else…they might think, “hey … here my ONE SHOT! The makers books are closed, and I’ve never seen a 3/4 concert k/q set come up… so to me they ARE worth it.”
Now, that is an entirely different topic what this sort of thing does, if it happens! I believe the set went for less, but not that much less.
I think all this would be different if top shelf gear was readily available..which it isn’t! You can go buy an amazing banjo right now with little wait. You can find a world class flute, and MAYBE a concertina, too! Fiddles are readily available…
Okay.. I’m off topic…
I think it’s just good to be on the level with the maker of your pipes, and if you move things on..well then, do it with confidence. I would like to think most makers are experienced enough to understand these things happen, and it’s not worth loosing too much sleep over…if any at all!
Well, if you follow the idea that market forces determine the worth of everything it probably is. It’s a rather bleak view of the world but thankfully not everybody is out to maximise profit all the time, in my experience anyway.
) of each individual craft-artist. its a touchy situation !! 
You can go buy an amazing banjo right now with little wait. You can find a world class flute, and MAYBE a concertina, too! Fiddles are readily available…