The Rolling Waves

Whistle
1

The Rolling Waves… I’ve decided this will be my next tune to learn (on whistle).

Sheet music from TheSession.org:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/88


Of course I wanted to hear it, so I started poking around and found a few “versions”…

From the movie The Boys and Girl from County Clare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y17Jd319fVI

It has some differences, particularly in measure 7… sounds like a long roll and ascending scale instead of arpeggios found in the sheet music on TheSession.


Fellow C&F member JoshD, YouTube video from last year:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7wZt2B36nI

This also has some differences, especially the repeating ascending scale in the first section.


This last example changes to D Mixolydian, thanks James for the analysis. :smiley:
http://irishflute.podbean.com/2008/07/21/the-rolling-wave-jig/

So, as a new player attempting to learn some ITM, this song has brought a couple of questions to mind…

  1. Do versions of relatively well known ITM tunes always vary this much from session to session, depending on where you are and who is in your group?

  2. Is one of the above versions more commonly heard than the others?

2

Short answers: 1) Yep. 2) Nope. But the TheSession setting is pretty generic.

3

Interesting, Mr. G. And folks I play with also tend to favor the C-nats / DMix feel. More like D Mixed-up-ian.

Oops, Mr. G’s mixed meter transcription from Brother Steve has disappeared now …

Longer answer for the OP:

Tune settings may vary that much from repetition to repetition by the same player, much less from session to session. And it sounds like you’re thinking of these “versions” as fixed entities, which is more or less wrong. A player may work out a particular treatment of a tune, and play that fairly consistently. Or play a setting they’ve acquired from someone else. Or, at the other end of the scale, just make up their interpretation as they play, a bit like jazz improv, and never play the same exact setting twice. Or likely something in between, with planned approaches to various phrases, but chosen and applied on the fly and mixed with creative variation.

So to distinguish versions as “different” at too fine a level of detail is a mistake. Tunes exist at both a “deep” level and a surface level. And when you learn a tune, you learn a mixture of both the Ur-tune and the particular setting. All of the above versions capture the same tune played (or notated) by specific players at a specific moment in time.

Take Josh’s performance. It’s likely he’s worked this out as one personalized approach to the tune, and that he can reproduce this approach at his pleasure. But it’s possible that this is the first and last time he’ll play it this way.

Also, at sessions you sometimes find a mixture of slightly different settings and ornament all being played simultaneously. Everyone knows it’s the same tune. Of course, longer standing sessions with key players often develop a favored setting that the group gravitates to. Otherwise, players may tend to what they consider a more basic, generic setting than if playing solo, since grandstanding is usually frowned on. In any case, good players will adjust to different session settings on the fly. And it’s this dynamic interaction that makes a session interesting.

Actually, this video has a Chiffboard connection, too, since that’s our own Ptarmigan playing that opening scene. :wink:

4

AKA The Lonesome Jig. Great version (as The Rolling Waves) on the Portland CD , Kevin Burke and Michael O Domhnaill (Green Linnet 1041)

Philo

5

This is extremely helpful, thanks so much for taking the time to address this question! As long as I know I can find the “skeleton” of a tune in sheet music form as a reference, I should have no problem adding some substance to it by listening to a variety of tune settings.


This is also valuable information, as one of my concerns attempting to learn some ITM was that I would learn a tune “wrong” and then discover that it was “different” from what might be performed in a session.


[quote=“Clarinetcat”]
From the movie > The Boys and Girl from County Clare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y17Jd319fVI
[/quote]

Actually, this video has a Chiffboard connection, too, since that’s our own Ptarmigan playing that opening scene. > :wink:

Excellent!!! :thumbsup:

6

Personally I prefer the sharp c’s but play it both ways. I believe in learning tunes they way they are played locally or by people you know but also learning other versions and improvising the tune when playing it at home. That way you’re not tied to the way you initially learned it.

PhilO, are you sure this is also known as the Lonesome Jig? The other Rolling Waves ( http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/515 ) is sometimes known by that name but have never heard the tune referred to here as having that name.

7

I’m messing around with it now (have been for almost 2 hours), and I haven’t decided which I like better… the C naturals or C sharps. I guess I’ll just have to keep playing it some more to figure it out. :wink:

I was under the impression that the other name for THIS particular “Roling Waves” was also called “Humoros Trim”, correct? :boggle:

8

I would agree Clarinetcat, I’ve also heard it called that. Somewhere along the line the two tunes got their paths crossed.

9

Ah, sorry, I thought the sheet music looked different, but that was the only one I knew of. In any event, do yourself a favor and listen to the CD; it’s a treat. I learned the tune with some lovely crans sprinkled about (second bar of each of the first two lines, A part). Takes practice to get those two fingers down one after the other so that it sounds right.

Philo

10

I will, thanks.

11

I know this as the Humours of Trim!

I play all C’s sharp except the one in bar 6, which I play natural (and change the preceding note to a B). Try it :slight_smile:

12

Interesting, I’ll have to try that later…

During practice the past couple of days, I’ve been practicing both and have seemed to prefer the C# on the high D whistle (it has a more spirited sound), and CNat on the Low D whistle (a bit more somber, darker like the sea).

Regardless, I can play it both ways now. :sunglasses:

13

OK… here is a clip, on a Kerry Pro Low D (with C-Naturals)

http://media.soundcloud.com/stream/rPv3qMdvEHwe?stream_token=VJg1w

14

It sounds like you are reading from sheet music. Plus it is still way too fast for you. And you still need to work on your ornaments.

Basically everything MTGuru said for the last one still applies. I’d take these two tunes and work on the for the next couple of weeks. Listen listen listen, and stop looking at the sheet music.

15

CC, just keep in mind that we’re going to be hard on you … Because your command of the basics (breath, tone, fingering) is already strong, and your potential is high. :wink:

Yes, too fast. You’re up around 124. Try 100.

16

Interesting… I was performing completely from memory, and incorporated some elements of pieces I’ve listened to into my playing, including small trills (like waves) and the C-naturals NOT on any dot version I have found.

I’ve listened to several recordings, and will continue to keep listening, but I honestly do not understand this whole “don’t look at sheet music” thing…

Music is written down for people to look at and perform from, isn’t it?



To complicate matters, every version I’ve been able to find is different:

The Rolling Wave (jig): http://irishflute.podbean.com/2008/07/21/the-rolling-wave-jig/

The Rolling Waves Jig - The Boys and Girl from County Clare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y17Jd319fVI

Spórt / The Rolling Wave - Michael Eskin and Ben Jaber: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18NxNR3XxEw

Rolling Waves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7wZt2B36nI

The Rolling Wave: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_bPqiauspQ

The Rolling Waves/Behind the Haystack: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCRpLVHzhWk



So, if I’m not supposed to learn from sheet music, which version would you folks suggest I learn from? Also, how would ANY ITM beginner know who to listen to, and what to listen for?

If the answer is “listen for the basic melody”, well… isn’t that already on the sheet music? :confused:


I’m finishing typing this as I see MTGuru’s post, so… I appologize in advance if this post sounds like I’m frustrated, because I am, sort of. :stuck_out_tongue:

Yes, I know you guys will be tough on me, I’ll make a effort not to take it personally. :laughing:

17

I thought the tempo was a bit quick, but you didn’t sound like you were reading to me (50+ years of paper training…I think I know the sound).

I don’t like the C naturals, but I think that may be a player’s call.

Now, this business about “don’t the printed versions have the basic tune?” Well, that is where this Irish stuff seems to differ from almost every other kind of music I play and most western music I know. As a recorder player I could always be sure that the Baroque music I was playing from was a good starting point. That was because I knew which editors to trust or to avoid. I could add ornaments, at least to some degree, with great confidence because there were certain things that recur in the music and I could find scholar editions that talked about that and also find recordings that used ornamentation made by players I knew were recognized as expert in what they were doing. With the Irish stuff you have several problems: 1) The transcriptions are made by all sorts of folks and you have little way to discover who is really doing a fine job. 2) Versions vary in different areas of Ireland 3) Ornamentation really isn’t ornamentation in the same sense. It can be the replacement of one three note pattern with a roll or with three other notes or any number of other things. 4) Because the players freely change the melody each time around it is even difficult to figure out what they consider the source tune. Take a look at Grey Larson’s fine book where he transcribes a bunch of performances complete with all the added things and you’ll see what I mean. 5) The use of “ornaments” and “variations” differ from area to area of Ireland and from player to player. One little corner of that variation is the whole “to tongue or not to tongue” issue. 6) Notated versions of tunes rarely contain much in the way of articulation indication. Many Jigs look on the page as though they are stressed ONE two three FOUR five six throughout, but actual performance is often something like ONE two three FOUR five six One two three FOUR- FIVE SIX ONE two three etc. Phrases ending on Four with pickups into the next phrase. “Ornaments” tend to reinforce the articulations. So, with none of the useful guidelines on the printed page playing in the style becomes very difficult unless you listen a great deal and begin to get a sense of the missing things and how to put them in. Actually this is pretty much true of every kind of music, but is more so for the Irish Trad stuff I think. 7) For the reasons above there will be multiple versions of the tunes out there and many of them could all be acceptable starting points!

All that said though I think you can do OK with notation as a starting point to learn IF (he screams) you listen, listen, listen. As to the various versions: get many of them and try them all (both printed and recorded). Then decide which you like for the starting point. Your experience will help you to understand what the tradition wants without too much difficulty just as it would with jazz or various kinds of classical music. But without listening you’ll not progress much at all. And, learning by ear will help you grasp the little motives that make up most of the tunes and see how some are replaceable by others. That learning is very important and is actually easier without notation “in the way.” I’ve been paper trained for 50 years, but I’ve had to leave the paper mostly behind if I want to progress on the trad stuff. In the short run that is very frustrating since learning comes slower. In the long run though the style and the needed techniques will become clear much more quickly.

Hope this helps.

18

cboody describes pretty well the issues with sheet music. I’ll just add that the reason I said it sounds like you’re playing from sheet music is because you’re missing out on the phrasing altogether, and instead sound like you’re phrasing based on the (written) bars lines. Jigs in irish music don’t usually follow the bars, and this Rolling Waves in particular does not really suit conforming to them at all. In some ways I think it’s actually too tricky for you right now. You need to put in a good few hundred hours of listening to really good traditional music. Unfortunately you can’t just load up youtube and listen to all the versions there, because you haven’t put in enough hours listening to the expert stuff to hear the difference!

I’d suggest getting yourself some recordings to listen to and learn from. My personal preferences would be Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Donncha O’Briain, Mary Bergin, Brid O’Donoghue. (Probably in that order too, but there are loads more that I’m not mentioning because it would just overwhelm!)

19

Yes, sheet music is meant for people to look at and perform from, but the reader needs to know the language. You can perform classical or band music or jazz or whatever it is you play on your clarinet from music because you know the language - you know what that music is supposed to sound like.

Just because a Frenchman can read French perfectly doesn’t mean that people [will be impressed | won’t be amused] when he starts reading an English text aloud - unless he knows the English language and has at least a degree of mastery over it.

Not a perfect analogy but you get the idea.

20

Yes, it helps… it’s still frustrating though. :wink:


I was playing the phrasing where it seemed appropriate, particularly for breathing. Playing the music through a few times led me to “feel” the phrases exactly where I placed them. Do you happen to have an example of the phrasing, or possibly put up an audio sample of playing this tune?


Interesting analogy, although I’d prefer to think I know the language (music notation) but not the dialect or accent (ITM). Obviously there is room for improvement on my end, which is why I’m asking for feedback. :slight_smile:


Thanks to all of you!