The Pentatonic Scale

Whistle
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Here is a list of all pentatonic scales on a D whistle based on the major pentatonic mode pattern TTmTm found in Western Europe (and other parts of the world).
T = whole tone interval, m = minor third interval.
2 = 2 semitone interval = T, 3 = 3 semitone interval = m.
First the five pentatonic modes in sequence, listing their pattern and what notes of the diatonic major scale each uses:

    intervals    notes    alternative names
P1: TTmTm 22323  123-56-  4,7-gap  major pentatonic
P2: TmTmT 23232  12-45-7  3,6-gap  (dorian pentatonic)
P3: mTMTT 32322  1-34-67  2,5-gap  (phrygian pentatonic)
P4: TmTTm 23223  12-456-  3,7-gap  (mixolydian pentatonic)
P5: mTTmT 32232  1-345-7  2,6-gap  minor pentatonic, NAF

From this we get the following 20 pentatonic scales for a D whistle, using the standard notes for it, plus the C natural (based on D and G major scale), no cross fingerings apart from the Cnat in column 4:

20 Pentatonic scales on D whistle:
    first     second   third      fourth (+Cnat)
P1: DEF#ABD   GABDEG   ABC#EF#A   CDEGAC 
P2: EF#ABDE   ABDEGA   BC#EF#AB   DEGACD
P3: F#ABDEF#  BDEGAB   C#EF#ABC#  EGACDE
P4: ABDEF#A   DEGABD   EF#ABC#E   GACDEG
P5: BDEF#AB   EGABDE   F#ABC#EF#  ACDEGA

For other whistles please transpose!
There are three positions in D major to fit a major pentatonic mode (P1): D, G, A. in first, second and third column. If we add the Cnat we got a fourth position: C. in fourth column. Each column contains one set of notes, and the next pentatonic mode is derived by going up one note (you see the permutations of the same notes in each column).

Pentatonic modes P1 and P2 are most common in western European traditional tunes. P3 and P4 is not used, and P5 rarely. P5 is the mode you find on Native American flutes.

Enjoy exploring pentatonic modes on the whistle!

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I’m curious about one thing Hans. (I don’t think I know enough about this pentatonic stuff … probably because it sometimes seems too easy, paradoxically, if you know what I mean.) Your P5 mode there is referred to as the “minor pentatonic”. Isn’t P3 also a minor pentatonic - though different - because of the minor third between its first two notes? Or isn’t that how it works?

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Major and Minor Pentatonic modes (P1 and P5) are the only modes which have a name in Western music, chiefly in Jazz. I think the naming comes from chords associated with these modes, but I have not studied this. The other modes have names in some other countries, for instance China.

Although P3 starts with a minor third, it is not found in Irish or Scottish traditional music, I think because it lacks a true Fifth (try EGACD’, no B). Jack Campin does not even mention it. In his naming scheme we could call it phr/min/loc mode (phrygian/minor/locrian), having the notes common to these three modes. It is easy to expand into a Phrygian scale, adding the second and fifth: from F#ABDEF# to F#GABC#DEF# on D whistle for instance.

The true “minor” pentatonic mode in Scottish/Irish traditions is P2: we could call it dor/mix/min pentatonic mode (dorian/mixolydian/minor), having the common notes of these three. Shifting from P1 major pentatonic to P2 is like shifting from a major to a dorian mode: just a note step up.

P4 is also interesting, as it just seems that quite a few Scottish tunes move in it: DEGABD’. Starting with DEG is quite common. Only those tunes find their tonic center in G, so are in fact P1 major pentatonic.

It is quite fun to do some “scale practise” with all these modes in different positions (tonics), and easy to improvise and jam. And as I mentioned in the other “modes” thread, try to play “Oh those breeches…” in G, A, C and D major pentatonic modes!

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A pipes influence ? Starting tunes at the bottom of the only full octave - e.g. Amazing Grace centred on ‘D’.
For a long time I thought P4 was the scale those tunes used.

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Just looked at it again:
Major Pentatonic got its name from being derived from the major scale, omitting the 4th and 7th.
Minor Pentatonic likewise got its name from being derived from the minor scale, omitting the 2nd and 6th, i.e. the fifth pentatonic mode pattern. Starting on the tonic of the minor mode it uses the same notes as the major pentatonic starting on the first note, the tonic of the major scale.
example:
D major pentatonic: DEF#ABD
B minor pentatonic: BDEF#AB

So we could use that convention and name the other pentatonic modes respectively:
P1: major pentatonic
P2: dorian pentatonic
P3: phrygian pentatonic
P4: mixolydian pentatonic
P5: minor pentatonic

I’ve added these names in brackets to my chart in the post above.

But this has not found its way to be accepted in musical circles as yet! We can make a start!

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I like the gap terminology. The terms don’t rely on anything other than knowing the doh-re-me and being able to start it different places. And miss notes out. [goes off to test himself on this ability]

But I can see that for people who have firm sense of, say, a dorian scale and dorian tunes references that way would be useful.

I’m only relatively recently starting from the bottom up. Pentatonic tunes were a main aid to getting used to where the notes were on the whistle and learning by ear - no pesky small intervals. The other two notes slotted in later. Then, just beginning, the cross fingered notes - playing familiar pentatonic tunes in A as a step to getting used to filling a gap with G#.

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Its intriguing watching your discussion here, Very interesting. I especially like the way |David looks as the pentatonic scale as a frame work within which to bring in various accidentals, thereby defining the particular mode for that piece of the tune. a tune like Chieff O’Neills is a classic in that regard.
In a way, that look on the pentatonic scales 1s similar to the way we look at a tune as a framework upon which we bring in various ornamental figures such as crans, rolls, cuts , doublings, triplings etc etc .

I find it revealing because due to my background I never, ever, view a single note as on its own. Always in reference to other notes around it, vertically and horizontally , to the tune itself, the underlying harmony notes, etc
Many instruments, such as mandolin, guitar vibrate as well as the note being played, so in actuality it requires a very specific technique to even approach playing notes isolated from other notes, by stopping all vibrating strings immediately after they sound.

As a result for good playing , on many instruments, all notes constantly have to referred to the other notes being played and the overtone series of each note. Even though consciously most of us are not even aware of what we are doing. If it sounds right…
As a piper I have a very different story, constant drones and individual notes which are sharply divided automatically, So sharply in fact that it create a rhythmic effect of those divisions. The drones with such powerful and strong overtones , if you look at a wav chart of their frequencies you see a lot happening.[ technical term?]

So here again a very big part of the pipes is in fact chordal, though again , most people dont know that.

Of course each individual note of a solo line, whistle, chanter etc, is in fact , again not just a single note , but a combination of overtones. Different instruments, different overtones and levels of these tones.
A harmonic as attained by lightly pressing on a string node contains, just the pure tone , no overtones.
A whistle, I think, is actually quite a pure tune. A Bagpipe chanter is not! The overtone series from a chanter can be wild. notes work incredibly well in relation to the drones or they sound terrible, this is all due to the overtones clashing. not just the pure tones being slightly out.
And a set of pipes can have 4 drones, 1 chanter each a slightly different tube and reed set up. lets not mention regulators!

So this is one reason why my understanding of the subject, as directly related to some of the actual instruments I play means these concepts as you are discussing are unfamiliar. As such I can see why people cant see what to me is obvious, because their background doesn’t include, or only includes a small part of, the instruments I play.

Also this explains perhaps why things that seem obvious to you, might slip me by completely, Why jazz musicians have such a very different way of looking at things, why whistlers might see things from a perspective I have not come close to.

So for me , mixolydian and major are as different as chalk and cheese. Understanding the root key of everything I play is as automatic as breathing. As a bass player since I was 14, thats my job. As a trad backing guitarist of 25 yrs thats what I do!! chords, keys, rhythm, dynamics.

As a percussionist and drummer I understand the rhythmic complexities of very fine and small detail that has really helped my understanding of Piping and vice versa.
If any of the insights Ive gained from my experience can be of any help, Im more than happy to do so.
I am ready to learn. Onagaishimasu.

Dont let me interrupt your conversation . do go on.
cheers


PS, I have 2 low D,s and half a dozen different whistles, but I only play a few simple tunes on them.

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Phew, you really have done it all, Will. Kudos to your superior knowledge! :party: But tell me, could you possibly just enlarge a little on this:

I find it revealing because due to my background > I never, ever, view a single note as on its own. > Always in reference to other notes around it, > vertically and horizontally > , to the tune itself, the underlying harmony notes, etc
Many instruments, such as mandolin, guitar vibrate as well as the note being played, so in actuality it requires a very specific technique to even approach playing notes isolated from other notes, by stopping all vibrating strings immediately after they sound.

As a result for good playing , on many instruments, all notes constantly have to referred to the other notes being played and the overtone series of each note. > Even though consciously most of us are not even aware of what we are doing. > If it sounds right…

It’s clearly far too complex for me stated thus, so any elucidation you could provide would be more than welcome. I realise you’re only allowed a maximum of 60,000 characters to respond, so perhaps you could split your response into several posts, one per week being probably as much as I could digest at one go (have you thought of running a course?), or perhaps alternatively you could just give us a link to your PhD thesis on the matter (clearly, as that would be your own intellectual property, you wouldn’t need to get permission to reproduce it in full here, as you had to with that pesky Tony Mac Mahon article). I look forward with considerable awe to your erudite response. In order to help you address your ruminations more accurately to my particular concerns, I’ve highlighted the bits which, obviously due to my inexperience and lack of years, I find particularly vexatious. Thank you in pleasurable anticipation.



Salami salami baloney.

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Locked for review.