The different Irish styles - Clare, Sligo, Donegal, etc.

Trad Irish Music
1

Hello all…

I have an important question and I can think of no better place
to ask it than this forum.

I’ve been playing ITM for quite some time now and I have been
doing research into all the various ‘on the island’ styles of ITM
that are out there but find myself somewhat confused.

What I would like to do here is start a thread that attempts
to sort of ‘clarify’ things and, perhaps, become an ‘essential’
thread for people with the same interest to find some clear
and concise information on these different ‘styles’.

What I would like to do is just focus on ‘on the island’ ( Ireland
itself ) ITM styles and not get into any of, what appear to be,
the myriad ‘off island’ styles like Cape Breton, Galecia, etc.

So I guess I am talking about what appear to be ‘the big 3’.

Clare, Sligo and Donegal style(s).

I have heard there is another dominant style called ‘Mayo’
but haven’t been able to find out much about that. I guess
that would be the first question for this thread, then… is
there a ‘big four’ and is there a ‘Mayo’ style and, if so,
what is that all about?

Near as I can tell… ( and I believe I am about to show my
confusion clearly here ) the ‘big 3’ styles can be summarized
in terms of DO’s and DON’Ts…

From a fiddler’s perspective…

  • Clare ITM style…

Essentially more ‘legato’, for those who understand that term.

DO: Lots of bowed slurs, Fingered triplets, Volume changes.
DON’T: Bowed triplets, pulloffs, drones.

  • Sligo ITM style…

Essentially more ‘staccato’ than ‘legato’ but a mix of both.

DO: Bowed triplets, Occasional accent droning, Some fingered triplets.
DON’T: Slur too much, Not too much Volume fluctuation.

  • Donegal ITM style…

Pretty much ‘staccatto’… more than other 2 styles.
Clean, crisp playing with steady volume and lots of DRIVE.

DO: Bowed triplets only. Sharp attack. Pulloffs OK. Volume steady as rock.
DON’T: Slur, Drone

This may amount to a pitiful summary of ‘the big 3’ styles but
that’s what I am hoping to correct here and come up with something
much better and more complete for myself and others.

I am HOPING that the IIP ( Irish Illuminati Protectorate ) will
pitch in here and help because this is one place where they
need to ‘hold court’ and help us all try and understand these
various ITM playing styles.

Apologies in advance if this entire ‘ITM style summary’ has been
hashed out before on this forum but I searched first and didn’t
seem to find the kind of concise summary I am looking for.

Also… if anyone knows of other LINKS to clear and concise
information on these different ITM styles let’s make those
other links part of this thread as well for future reference.

Looking forward to hearing from any/all about this.

Even if you only know 1 style but know it well… tell us
what you know!

Thanks in advance…
Callahan

2

Hi
this is not all that easy. there are different styles of fiddling in donegal, depending on which area you are going to. I am placed at the north west costline, and the style around here is strongly influenced by players like James Byrnes, the Campbells from the older generation who taught a lot of younger players now in their 20 - 30’. Around herre the highlands are very popular, literally a;most every reel can be revamped and become a highland. then, its not all stacato either, – its much about getting a good tone out of the fiddle, and its more singlbowed. the timing is straight.
John doherty was influencial, as he travelled a lot in the county and thereby spread a lot of tunes, but he had his very own style of playing, which is was very artistic.
Now, if you go about 50 miles up the road to gwedore, Francy Mooney is the most influencial man on the fiddle, now well in his 70’. and he plays different than the above. Or if you go to east Donegal, say Raphoe, convoy, the fiddling is different again.
Now, we fiddlers all know and meet eachother at occasions, so there is some common ground in the selection of the tunes, the phrasing etc.
But the differences are just as different as the landscapes, or maybe, if i express it like that:
Clare music suits Clare and really sounds well there, so does the south Sligo music suit that area and the Donegal music does so for Donegal.
It’s only when traveling to clare of Sligo, I would realize, that i play the music differently, or that the music there sounds strange.
IMO, it has a lot to do where musicians live, what kind of a live they have, all that influences theri music, as much as the blue of the sky, which is different in clare than Donegal.

3

Hmm, I don’t know if you’re on the right track there. The only way to figure things out is to listen to players from these areas. There are quite a few styles that you left out such as Galway and Kerry. And there are even differences in styles in each county… East Clare vs West Clare. The only way to understand the difference is to listen ALOT to different regions.

There’s a few sites out there that give info and samples of different playing styles.

http://www.rogermillington.com/tunetoc/index.html
http://www.sligofiddler.com/tracks.htm
http://tedmcgraw.com/recimages/Irish_clips.htm
http://www.lafferty.ca/music/irish/flute-geezers/
http://www.irishfiddle.com/legends.html

Then there are a few good cds out there as well that can help you. In the interest of being brief I’ll only name a few.

Sligo- The mountain road (compilation of tunes from south sligo)
Kevin Henry One’s own place
Kerry- Kerry Fiddles
East Clare/East Galway- An historic Recording with PJ Hayes, Paddy Canny, Bridie Lafferty, and Peadar O’loughlin
West Clare- Anything by Bobby Casey, Crehan and that crew

Hopefully somebody will fill you in with others cause I need to head out the door… just listen to the various regions… therorizing won’t help.

4

It might help you as well to look at the history of Fiddling on the Island.

While one can draw clear lines between short bow and long styles I think it very hard to say one place does all one or the other, since many Fiddlers progress towards a legato style with age.

5

If I may be so bold as to inquire…Are there also different whistle styles by region as opposed to by well known players? Is whistling too below the radar to categorize?
Tony

6

http://www.eolas.ca/comhaltas/Documents/A%20WAY%20WITH%20THE%20BOW.htm

7

I got jumped on (hard) when I asked this about piping. HansW has pretty much echoed what I have been told - the people you are listening to on recordings are playing their own personal styles. If two people come from the same area, they may have had common influences, but they are still mostly playing differently from each other. The similarities convince listeners from outside to lump those players together, but the players themselves don’t agree that they are playing the same style, and object to being pigeon-holed.

Perhaps it would be safer to say that people who share common influences have similar styles, but they don’t represent entire regions, just their own localities. The idea of forcing constraints on style comes from outside the tradition, not from within.

djm

8

I think where whistling style is concerned, sometimes there is a tendancy to follow flute/piping/fiddling styles of the respective regions. Like for some northern/Sligo players, you get northern flute influenced pulsey whistle playing eg. Kevin Henry, Fintan Vallely, Desi Wilkinson, etc. Then in the Miltown region you get more of a Willie Clancy piping influenced whistling.

When discussing about regional style it is good to consider that the general playing characteristics assigned to each “regional style” is only a very rough guide, and like djm mentioned within a region there are players that play quite differently i.e. ornaments, sparseness/floridity of playing, phrasing, legato/staccato. Its definitely safer to talk about influential musicians in the region influencing the styles of the musicians in the locality.

That said, I have given it some thought and have a theory that if we were to start disecting things there is only one factor, rhythm, that can unify the styles of a region together. Somehow all the West Clare players play in a similar rhythm, the East Clare players play in a slightly different rhythm, Sligo players play in another rhythm style, Donegal, Kerry, Galway etc. Their individual styles may be different, but I feel that you can distinguish their so-called “regional style” from the rhythm they play in.

9

I think the Don’ts and Dos here are a bit extreme. Clare fiddlers do use bowed triplets, just maybe not with as much frequency as your generic Donegal fiddler. And drones, West Clare fiddlers Patrick Kelly and Ellen Galvin did tons of those. It is best to just listen and expose yourself to as many players as possible and try not force them into pigeonholes that may not necessarily fit just yet. It would also be a good idea to explore the music of Kerry fidders like Jack mentioned as it is a pretty major fiddling style in itself.

10

Hello ( all )…
Callahan again…

WOW! Thanks to ALL who have taken the time to respond
to this thread today. I meant to monitor all day and
respond to any/all postings but was taken away from
the computer all day.

This is EXACTLY the kind of input I was hoping for.

I KNOW that I have, as of this moment, only scratched
the surface on this topic and my understanding of this
complex topic can only be described as ‘generic’ but
I already know far more now than I did this morning
and would like to see the discussion continue.

I’d like to respond to each posting but I think I can
summarize what has been posted so far and, perhaps,
set a tone for the continuation of the thread.

  1. I KNOW this topic can be a ‘bottomless pit’. There is
    no way any of these ‘styles’ can be fully qualified one
    way or the other… but that is the challenge.

  2. The postings from today seem to fall into 2 different
    categories…

A) No style is all one thing and not the other
B) There ARE things about each style that ‘identify’ them.

It’s really ‘Category B’ that I am hoping to learn the
most about and, hopefully, have that be a great starting
place for myself ( and anyone ) who is hungry for the
same information.

I think if you go back to my very first posting and the
( albeit, pitiful ) DO’s and DON’Ts list for the ‘the big 3’
styles… and you accept the now verified fact that
you can’t ever be THAT specific ( Category A responses today )
but you FORGET that reality for a moment… what you
are left with is the fact that no one has denied that there
ARE these different STYLES and they DO tend to follow
certain ‘generic’ but also specific ‘ways of playing’.
( Category B responses today ).

So I think we really can ‘nail this down’ for someone who
is only beginning the journey but just wants the ‘roadmap’
to follow.

I was talking with Ciarran Tourish, fiddler for Altan, one night
over a beer not too long ago and when I broached the subject
of ‘Donegal’ style he did a strange but wonderful thing.

What I had asked him was to really just try and tell me
what the MOST IMPORTANT element of ‘Donegal Style’
would be. Not ALL elelements… but just one that he
would classify as MOST IMPORTANT.

He bascially frowned for a moment and scrinced up his face
and tried to come up with something… but then I watched
his face light up like he just arrived at an important
conclusion.

Ciarran said “I don’t think I have the words for it… but
I can SHOW you!”

Next thing I knew Ciarran reached over and grabbed a
menu off the table in the bar and then reached over
and pulled my bow-arm up and shoved the menu under
it and then pulled my arm back down tight against my
body again.

Then he said…

“Okay… pretend that menu is a piece of your Mother’s
GOOD China… and now play your heart out… but don’t
you dare drop the fookin’ thing.”

What he was trying to say was “It’s all in the wrist.”
That Donegal style is all about clean, crisp staccato attack.

I watched him play the next night at another concert
in town and he surely practices what he preaches.
It was ‘All in the Wrist’.

By contrast… I have watched Martin Hayes ( Clare style )
play and you could drive a Mac truck between his bow
arm and his body. For him… it’s all about long bow
strokes and volume fluctuations ( which is what long
bow strokes are really for… bow speed = volume )

Then there is Kevin Burke ( Sligo style? ) which seems
to be a mix of the other two. Some wrist and some
long-bows but ( interestingly enough ) you never leave
the top-third of the bow. If you look at a lot of Sligo
fiddlers bows you can definitely see that they hardly
ever even put any rosin anywhere but the top third
of the bow.

I don’t really want to get lost in how any ONE person
plays or whether they are TRUE representatives of
one style or the other… that will get really messy.

I would rather just stick to trying to nail down what
IS absolutely KNOWN about these ‘on island’ styles.

I think it can be done… and in a DO and DON’T sort
of fashion that can serve as a guideline for an
exciting journey.

The only way to proceed, I think, is to acknowledge
that while there might be EAST/WEST Donegal styles
and/or NORTH/SOUTH Clare styles… that these are
just subsets of the major ‘style’ in that region but
there definitely are things COMMON that could be
qualified as ‘Donegal’ or ‘Clare’ or ‘Sligo’.

I was wondering about ‘Mayo’ style but it still seems
that is rather obscure and doesn’t rise to the level
of a complete ‘Big 4’ category.

I think today’s postings at least CONFIRMED that
the ‘Big 3’ are, in fact…

Donegal
Sligo
Clare

I believe we have started off cooking with bacon here
and we CAN get to a ‘shor list’ of what the major
specifics are that ‘identify’ each the ‘Big 3’ and serve
to separate them from each other - regardless of
individual player nuances.

Thanks again to all who have responded so far.
I will most cerainly go check out EVERY LINK that
has been posted and report back.

Yours…
Callahan

11

Holy cow… stop the presses ( and the thread? )

I had no idea the following resource posted by rn ( Thanks rh! )
existed. It is unbelievable and ‘to the point’…

http://www.eolas.ca/comhaltas/Documents/A%20WAY%20WITH%20THE%20BOW.htm

I’ve read it 4 times through and going for number 5.

If I had known this document existed I probably would
not have started this thread.

Thanks again to rh.

I still think this can all be broken down into ‘simpler’ terms
and more general ‘guidelines’ but we shall see.

Even this ( verbose ) document doesn’t deny the fact that
fiddlers in the country can sometimes tell exactly what
( major ) part of the country another fiddler comes from
and that means the ‘ear’ is separating out the plethura
of ‘nuances’ that any individual player brings to his/her
playing and STILL idenifying ‘some rules’ about the
playing.

That’s what I am after, still.

What are THE RULES… regardless of nuance.

Not sure if it all applies to flute or uilleann pipe players as
well but I’ll bet it does.

Later…
Callahan

12

I don’t think you get it. The only way you can is by listening to the older players from a variety of styles and regions. Listen, don’t theorize and make rules on a itm forum where the majority of posters know as little or less than you do. And as far as the big three goes, Paddy O’keefe and Paddy Fahy might take exception, to name a few.

Listen!!

13

MurphyStout wrote…

I don’t think you get it. The only way you can is by listening to the older > players from a variety of styles and regions. Listen, don’t theorize and > make rules on a itm forum where the majority of posters know as little > or less than you do. And as far as the big three goes, Paddy O’keefe >and Paddy Fahy might take exception, to name a few.

Listen!!

With all due respect… I do ‘get it’ that some will say the ONLY
way to ‘know’ these styles in by ‘listening’ but I happen to think
that there ARE essenial elements to all of these styles that
make them what they are and can be CODIFIED.

Martin Hayes has been quoted as saying that the ‘new age’
of communication is causing a lot of the regional playing
styles to ‘disappear’. Maybe that’s true… but if there was
more WRITTEN DOWN about them then maybe they
wouldn’t be in the pipeline for extinction.

Do you play?
If so… do you play ‘different styles’ or just one, usually?

If more than one style… then what do you DO?
Have you ever analyzed it yourself?
Surely you must know what you are ‘doing’ differently
when you attempt to ‘play’ one style or the other.

It’s the ‘Common DOs’ ( and/or DON’TS) that I think will
be fascinating to discover here.

As I said before… the things that ‘define’ the style
above and beyond any nuances.

Later…
Callahan

14

K, maybe I’m wrong… if you’re looking for a scientific formula, you could try your calculator.

Of course I’ve analized things… but in order to understand itm, you must do your itm homework. I’ve done my homework so I can tell somebody’s style or lack of style when I listen to them. You have obviously not done your homework. You didn’t even know that styles existed beyond the “big 3.” Do you homework and you won’t need to theorize. Until you do your homework you won’t have the necesary tools to join this discussion and if you did do your homework you prolly woundn’t need to even have this discussion. And if you want to learn a particular style, you must listen and learn from that style be copying phrasing, ornaments, groove, rhythm ect. That’s the only way to do it. Like i said, theorizing won’t help.

And for your info I play the flute in the geezery sligo style.

15

No no… please don’t misunderstand… my writing style might
reflect my education ( engineering ) but I am NOT trying to
be be, as you say, ‘scientific’ about this.

What I am trying to do is ‘clarify’ what, to myself and others,
is a very confusing issue. It comes from a love for the music
and wanting to know as much as I can about it… including
the ‘styles’ I keep hearing ( and hearing about ).

I believe no player on the planet really understands all
these ‘styles’… but there are a lot of others on the planet
who WANT to understand as much as possible about them,
myself included.

Then you ALMOST have the point of this thread.

If you can idenfify, with your ( well trained ) ear what
‘style’ is being played then why not share a little
insight as to exactly WHAT you hear that ‘identifies’
the style to you… above and beyond and individual ‘nuances’.

Never actually said I didn’t. Of course I KNEW that there’s
more than the ‘Big 3’ when I started the thread but I am
by no means locked into that. No one should be, but
it will boil down to a distinction between the ‘popular’
and the ‘obscure’.

If you think it should be the ‘Big 7’ or the ‘Big 18’ then please
fill out the following form ( you did say you did your homework,
right? )

( Remember… this thread is focused on ‘on island’ styles
and not the other 6 Celtic nations. Cape Breton and
Galecia and all that are for another thread… )

  1. Clare
  2. Sligo
  3. Donegal
  4. Kerry
  5. Mayo

etc…

I don’t need to go beef up my toolbox to meet your
criteria for ‘joining’ this discussion.

This is a public forum and I STARTED the (thread) discussion.

It will be me who decides if anyone responding is
staying ‘on topic’ and the one who suggests that, if they
can’t, they just stay out of the thread and occupy
themselves elsewhere.

That’s how that works.

That’s what the ‘Post a New Topic for Discussion’ Button is for
in this medium.

Well… I can tell you I’m not doing a term paper or anything
but maybe this IS part of me ‘doing my homework’.

I assure you I have been looking at this issue for awhile.
Just today I have discovered more resources on the topic
than previous many hours of sweat have produced so I
would say that’s good ‘homework’. This is a fantastic forum
and the title of the forum itself matches the topic.
I can think of worse places to ‘do my homework’.

I disagree. That is only ONE way to do it and a step that
should not be omitted but it is not the ‘end all and be-all’
or learning any musical ‘style’.

Another way is to ‘do your homework’ and try and find out from
as many sources as you can what constitutes the ‘general
rules’ regarding that style.

Enter stage left: The Chiff and Fipple Forum and whatever
talent resides there.

I am not trying to ‘theorize’. That’s for philosophers.
I am trying to ‘codify’. There’s a huge difference.

Cool! Would that be EAST or WEST Lake Tahoe?

Where can I ‘do my homework’ on that style… or would
you care to elaborate on it right here?

Got anything I can ‘listen’ to? That’s important.

Yours
Callahan

16

This is what I understand, yes… that Donegal ( while known as
a major ‘style’ unto itself ) tends to have more variation within
that region than a lot of other places in Ireland.

But it still seems that there are COMMON ELEMENTS to MOST
of the ‘Donegal’ styles that make a Donegal player ‘feel comfortable’
anywhere in that region, musically speaking.

These would be the things I am most interested in.
The things that make it NOT-Clare or NOT-Sligo, fer sure.

No question. I have met and had conversations with a number
of the members of Altan and they all speak highly of John.
They have always, and still do, play a LOT of his tunes.
He was a ‘style’ unto himself… but he was STILL from ‘Donegal’
and can still be identified as such. My question is WHY.
What were the ‘essentials’ of his playing that made it
NOT-Clare or NOT-Sligo or NOT-Kerry. The jury is still out.


Okay… How so? Specifically?
What does he DO on the instrument that makes is
‘different’ and are there still COMMON ‘Donegal’
elements in the playing? If so… what?

Hate to sound like a broken record but, again, in what
way is it ‘different’? Specifics, please.
Is it a total departure from ‘Donegal’ or do those
‘common’ elements still remain?

I hear ya… and I understand exactly what you are trying
to say… but let me continue to play devil’s advocate for
a moment.

You said “It’s only when traveling to Clare or Sligo I would
realize I play the music differently”

In that moment of realization… exactly WHAT IS IT
that makes you realize you are a ‘stranger in a strange land’,
musically speaking.

Is it the sudden lack of bowed triplets or the distinct use
of VOLUME for accents versus rock-steady volume or
a sudden lack of what your musical sense of ‘drive’
is or what? There have to be things coming to your
ear that tell you “Geez… that’s not what I do”.
What ARE those things you hear?

You said “…the music sounds so strange”.

WHY? What are you NOT hearing that you would
EXPECT to hear back in Donegal ( area ).

Of course… but when the sky seems to be so different that
you would ( as you stated above ) find it ‘strange’ then
there’s a REASON for that. Blue is a mix of certain gradients
of other colors. Same with music. When it sounds ‘strange’
to you it’s only because you are either now hearing too
much of something you wouldn’t normally hear/do or not enough
of some things you normally would hear/do.

Can you be any more specific?

Later…
Callahan

17

Yes… this is why I believe the argument that the ONLY way
to discover the roots of a ‘style’ are to simply ( and ONLY )
‘listen’ to recordings. A lot has gone on before a musician
finds himself in a studio in front of a microphone and someone
counting off the start from behind a glass wall.

Musicians are musicians… and no one every WANTS to be
told “Hey… you sound EXACTLY like so-and-so”… but that
doesn’t mean that people are not still adhering to a basic
‘style’ underneath the personal nuances they have added.

It’s that ‘basic’ style and the inherent RULES that I am
after here.

If someone CALLS themselves a ‘Donegal’ player or
says “I play SLIGO style” or “I prefer CLARE”… then
exactly what do they base that on?

This is what is fascinating to me and seems to be
emerging from the discussion.

Yep… but you said it yourself… “common influences”.
That’s more than just ‘someone’… it’s a ‘something’
and it’s a WAY OF PLAYING.

Keyword: ‘Similarities’.
For some ‘styles’… they are ALWAYS there… or you aren’t
anywhere ‘near’ the style and no one ‘lumps’ you with anyone.

Might be a funny way to rephrase what you just said but
I would do it like this…

“When players who don’t want to get lumped together with
other players get lumped together with other players then
what is it that’s causing the lumping? It’s got to be something
and it’s got to be identifiable or there wouldn’t be any
‘lumping’ going on at all.”

Well… that is certainly true.

Until American record companies started travelling to Ireland
in the 1920’s and ‘recording the Masters’ most people on the
island had little idea there were so many variances in playing
styles at all or that they could be ‘lumped’ into various regional
‘categories’ and given a name. The ‘names’ for these 'regional
styles are, in all reality, a modern invention.

But… all that being said… it’s the year 2005 and not 1920
and these identifiable ‘styles’ are still going strong so there
has to be something to it all.

The devil is in the details… and that’s what I
find most fascinating. It comes down to a WAY
of playing that is ‘identifiable’.

Later…
Callahan

18

Groove, rthym, note selection, articulation, ornamentation… etc. are what styles are made of. You really can’t talk about such things… you just have listen to them and mimic them. That’s the last I’ll say cause I think I’m wasting my time.

And I don’t feel as though I need to offer clips to try to validate myself.

19

Exactly. No question… so there ARE these styles and people
everywhere DO try and ‘duplicate’ them on their respective
instruments. If ‘bowed triplets’ are prevalent in that style then
you do a lot of ‘finger jamming’ on your button box. If not,
then you don’t… etc, etc.

What’s fascinating here is WHERE that kind of specific
‘to finger-jam or not to finger-jam a triplet’ information
comes from.

Would ‘Miltown region’ rise to the level of a ‘style’ unto
itself, then, or just a ‘variation’ of another, broader style?
Did Willie Clancy ever say what ‘style’ HE played?

Aha! Bingo!

You said…

“The General playing characteristics assigned to each
‘regional style’.”

This is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

They DO exist. Of COURSE they do.

So WHAT ARE THEY, EXACTLY?

Who did the ‘assigning’ and is it codified somewhere?

This ‘rough guide’ you speak of is EXACTLY what I
am looking for at this point in time.

Does it exist?

I haven’t seen it yet… even with all the links posted
so far and been searching far and wide.

Does it look like the DO and DON’T list that I
started this thread with? Could it?

Your last point is VERY imporant.

Rythmn is a VERY important part of any ‘style’.

We ARE ‘dissecting’ things. That’s the point.

You said…

“All the West Clare players play in a similar rythmn”
“The East Clare players play in a slighly different rythmn”
“Sligo players play in another rythmn style”
“Donegal, Kerry, Galway, etc.”
“I feel you can distinguish their so-called regional style
from the rythmns they play in”

Super obeservation and you are probably right… but
2 cents and that gets you to China.

What EXACTLY are the ‘rythmn variations’ you are
referring to. How can we best DESCRIBE them, here,
and not leave such and important point up in the
stratosphere?

It’s a ‘fill in the blanks’ sorta thing… really…

  1. West Clare rythmn = ??
  2. East Clare rythmn = ??
  3. Sligo rythmn = ??
  4. Donegal rythmn = ??
  5. Kerry rythmn = ??
  6. Galway rythmn = ??
  10. Any other major regional rythmn = ??

Later…
Callahan

20

Absolutely. No question… and each of those things, as it
relates to ‘style’… means you have to physically DO
SOMETHING a little differently than you would if playing
some ‘other’ style. They all translate to physical ACTIONS.

Yes… you can. We ARE talking about them.

Totally disagree. You CAN talk about such things.

One at a time and in great detail… if that’s what it
takes to understand them.

It’s not voodoo. It’s music.

Later…
Callahan