The different Irish styles - Clare, Sligo, Donegal, etc.

Introducing Peadar O Loughlin and Ronan Browne’s The West Wind Jackie Small described West Clare music as:

The Music of West Clare hear here is unhurried and played for the satisfaction of the player or the listener; with time in a jig or a reel tosavour a particular phrase, to fill out an interval with a felicitous run of notes or linger on a note to bring out it’s colour

Which, I think, is as good a description as any of what the different ways of playing within the region have in common.

As pointed out above, there is not one way of playing defyning Clare music, even the four greats of West Clare music of the former generation , John Kelly, Bobby Casey, Junior Crehan and Joe Ryan each had easily distinguishable personal styles but they had in common what Jackie describes above.

That said, in Callahan’s first description ‘changes in volume’ features. This is a feature associated with East Clare music and even there only really with the playing of Martin Rochford and Paddy Canny, to an extend in Peter Woods and today succesfully copied and made famous by Martin Hayes. I am not sure they developed that themselves, that it goes back to pat Canny (the father) or Johnny Allen’s fiddle playing from the generation before Rochford and Canny (roughly around 1900), it is certainly a feature not widely used even in East Clare.

Different as they may be. East and West Clare music can mix well, I have on occasion heard Martin Rochford play with Junior Crehan, Canny with Casey and Ryan, O’ Loughlin with everybody else, all bringing with them the elements Jackie Small describes above.

Patrick Kelly and Ellen ‘Nell’ Galvin whom Eldarion mentions above stand alone in a way but fit in well in the style (Nell Galvin contributing many tunes, via Willie Clancy, to the canon of the West Clare repertoire) even while they have a strong connection to the old Kerry/West Limerick styles of playing (through George Whelan and traffic across the Shannon).

Ofcourse north Clare is a diferent matter alltogether, with a strong dividing line (around the moy/Faha area)between the richly embellished ornamental style around Miltown Malbay and the starker, bare style around Doolin and areas further north signified by players like Paddy Killourhy and WIllie ‘beg’ Shannon etc.

Yet, these different styles within the area mix quite well as tapes of Micho Russell playing with Martin Rochford or the Miltown crowd playing in Doolin with the ‘locals’ during the 60’s show.

Describing Kevin Burke as ‘Sligo’ is not all that well chosen (although often done) as he was very strongly influenced by both Bobby Casey and Martin Rochford. He played an awfull lot with PJ Crotty while in his late teens and there is a a large chunk of Clare influence in his playing.

As a comparison of several elements David Lyth’s book on bowing styles is a good introduction, the second volume has detailed examples of Clare and Kerry players.

I think you’re missing the point entirely and should really just go and listen. Listen to more good masters of various styles and thats what I think Jack meant when he says do your homework. Excuse me for being frank but the opinions you are putting out tell me that you haven’t done enough of that. Use your ears, train them and listen.

If you have done that, it makes all this debating, codifying, verbalising, Grey Larsonifying, or whatever-you-want-to-call-it pretty redundant. Why do you need someone to spell out for you what is Clare style (which/whose Clare style by the way?) when your ears will tell you so much better?

When talking about regional styles, what is actually more pertinent are the old influencial musicians in the region and their influences. Also keep in mind that counties are big places and influences vary from town to town. If you want to learn about styles listen to these influencial musicians. Contrary to popular belief there are no magical borders demarcated by fairies who decide that musicians within these geographical borders must play in a manner strictly conforming to a list of “rules”. Thats a totally unrealistic and sanitary way to view things. What makes a style are the people and who they got the music from.

Use your ears dude. No use just talking about it.

Hi
Very lively discussion indeed. What Kiran tourish said there the other night certainly aplies to the inishowen peninsula.
Maybe, a methaphor may explain better our dilemma at the moment: Say, there is a bottle of medicine, from donegal, one from Sligo, one from Clare. there are a few names of local herbs written on it. Now we can look at those bottles and theorize what the content will do to us if we take a spoon of it, and there will be all sorts of opinions. the only way to find out for definate is to take a few spoons and find out for yourself.
I used to live in Wexford for a few years and now for the past more than 10 years live up here and play the fiddle, at least once a week in a session. during the summer months it could be more nights. so-- music forms part of my daily live, is expression of whats on, it’s not aboput copying anyone in particular just to play like XYZ.
if anything in general can be said it’s that much:
There are different tunes played in donegal that in clare / Sligo, and these tunes are played in a local fashion, its like an accent, mostly unkown to yourself, but if you meet with musicians from other areas you’l find, that they put it differently.
and I think that is it as far as language goes.

Cal, Murphy has given you the basis for study. Do not look to modern players like Martin Hayes. His style is unique to him, both physically and musically. If you want to learn Clare style, look to Micho Russell. Do not look to Kevin Burke. His style is considered SW USA (which is why it appeals to a lot of Americans). If you want to learn Sligo go to Michael Coleman or Matt Cranitch. Even Tommy Peoples, who is highly regarded for bringing Donegal style to the south of Ireland, plays in his own unique way. If you want to learn Donegal style look to Francie Byrnes or John Doherty. For Sliabh Luachra/Kerry listen to Pádraig O’Keeffe or Denis Murphy. etc.

To “get” the regional styles, you are best to listen to the older musicians who were the last to learn their styles in a relatively isolated environment. Younger modern players have access to radio, recordings, and travel, and have a huge number of influences that did not exist even 50 years ago. The newer the musician, the less likely they are playing in any “pure” style (unless they are total pedants :wink: ).

djm

Just a little personal note to Eldarion: This is bizarre! I was just thinking about you this morning and wondering if you were still on the board. Glad to know you’re still around. Nice to hear from you again. :slight_smile:

Susan

Okay. Continue your discussion.

No Hayes is not totally unique, some of the material on his first CD came straight from Martin Rochford and Tommy Potts. He borrowed extremely heavily from those who went before and would be the first to acknowledge that. He has made the material his own but saying he is unique only points to you buying the salespitch and not knowing where he came from.

Micho is only one representative of the Clare style, his playing is in a lot of ways vastly different from the whistlestyles played in other areas, even those within walking distance (mind you that would be a good walk but still). How do you think he compares to Willie Clancy, JC Talty, Michaeal Falsey, Joe Cunneen, Michael Davoren, Josie Hayes, Martin Talty, Mickie Cleary, Peadar O Loughlin, Paddy ‘Organ’ Mullins, Pappie Looney and Jimmy Hogan or even to stay in his own area to his brother Gussie or John Killourhy?

Where do you wanto fit in Bobby Casey and Junior Crehan, what have they incommon and where are they different (considering JUnior learned from Bobby’s father Scully and later taught Bobby). That sort of questions arise and you can gain some insight trying to answer them.

And you can only resolve all that stuff by listening a lot and to as many as you can.

:laughing: Peter, you make my point for me. These are all older musicians, many from the same areas, and what they play is different enough from each other that I would say the differences outweigh the similarities, which was my original point. I only suggested a few names, not a whole catalogue. Besides, recordings of several of the players you mention are not generally available, so may as well not exist for someone like Cal who is just starting out.

djm

Seriously, listening to Willie Clancy or JC play the whistle as compared to Micho you hear more similarities than differences? At the same time considering the distance between their locations is less than 15 miles? :laughing:

I love Micho’s playing. He definitely has his own style, but the “feel” of it is everything, and to me his timing is perfect, with each note placed just exactly where it should go.

Interesting that you would mention Willie C as an exemplar of Clare music. I thought his influences were more his father and Johnny Doran.


djm

Gilbert Clancy pretty much gave young Willie the basic grounding and WIllie’s whistle playing was formed (and described by Martin Rochford as ‘powerful’) before he met Johnny Doran. Willie fits in perfectly with Bobby Casey’s music that came from Scully Casey.
I mentioned him because it is all the more interesting how he had this highly ornamented lively style you find around Miltown while literally up the road from where he was born there is the dividing line entering an area (say the townlands of Faha, Clooneyogan and Moy, towards Lahinch)where you find only a much more bare style, as for example the concertina playing of Mary Haren (his grans aunt I think) or today Kitty Hayes (who pretty much has the style of her father Peter Smyth who used to play with Willie’s father Gilbert), the whistle and fluteplaying of Jimmy Hogan, Pappy Looney etc that was much more stylistically related to the music of the Doolin area.

Eeeewwwww! Box players! :stuck_out_tongue: :laughing:

djm

Of course homework is at the heart of learning any trad style and listening (and mimicry) is at the heart of doing the homework. I’m not sure what you would include in ‘theorising’ but it is just wrong to think that there aren’t important things you can’t pick up just by listening.

When people first encountered the blues 78s of Skip James, everybody listened hard but nobody could copy his guitar style. Then, when he was rediscovered, people learnt that he had been using an idiosyncratic D minor tuning. No amount of listening could have told you that. That’s not exactly theory I suppose, but I’m sure there are things you can best learn with a bit of theory to aid the listening and practice. I’ve never found a style of music for which that wasn’t true.

Sometimes listening tells you there is a subtle difference between the styles of two players. Could any intelligent person resist the temptation to try to figure out what that difference consists in? Could this exercise possibly hurt your playing? Could you even try to mimic each player effectively without trying to conceptualise the difference to some extent? I think we all do this a lot of the time without trying to put words to what we are discovering except when challenged or when trying to teach someone.

just for that, i’m gonna get out the C#/D and play a set of polkas in yer honor… :smiley:

and callahan, you’re welcome for the link. you might want to email Philippe Varlet if you have any questions about his article – he may have modified his thinking on the subject since he wrote it, i dunno. you can probably reach him through his celticgrooves.com site.

and if you’ve got LOTS of time on your hands, you can search the IRTRAD-L archives
https://listserv.heanet.ie/irtrad-l.html
where this topic has been debated a number of times over the years.

I think the thing about the article is that Philippe only deals with players who have recorded commercially, which gives you a very limited and thus distorted view of what really is going on.

you make a good point, and that is why i say he may have modified his views since then. i remember him being involved in a spirited IRTRAD-L debate (is there any other kind?) on this subject and this or a similar argument may have arisen during that time… it was several years ago, so the precise details escape me.

Do you know the Ballydesmond Polka set? I can play along to that one. :smiley:

djm

Hoo ha. The truly big styles of playing are Burke (Kevin or Joe) Peoples Hayes Molloy Keenan O’Flynn. End of discussion.
I once heard a man play the fiddle (in person) not quite exactly like Burke. It was like listening to a martian scat.
Don’t forget Planxty Bothy Band De Dannan Altan Solos Dervish. O’Dohmnaill and Finn. There are people slavishly mimicing them in Argentina I bet.
Also Chieftains, once very much in favor among the populace but alas now slowly fading away due to the impact of making too much money/too many guest appearances by Sting…

Humph. Somebody tell me about regional harmonica styles. And please don’t say Wexford…

Steve (suffering from stylistic inferiority complex…)

Hello Peter…
This is Callahan…

Thanks for your postings to this thread.
I was hoping you would have some to say on this.

Your first post and your ‘quote’ about Clare style was
right on the money.

Words like ‘savoring’ are EXACTLY the kinds of things
that can be used to describe playing differences.

There is NO QUESTION that, in my mind, the Clare style is
the only one that consistently emphasizes this kind of ‘savoring’ of
phrases ‘for the enjoyment of the player and listener alike’.

…and IMHO you are also right about NOT excluding Martin Hayes
from the list of ‘masters’ of this style just because he is
a ‘modern’ player. If ‘savoring a phrase’ is a distinct mark
of the Clare style and tradition then you would be hard
pressed to find anyone, past or present ( or future? ) who
does that better than Martin. He also throws in the
‘volume fluctuations’ at the same time he is ‘savoring’
and it really is a beautiful thing ( if you like that sort of
playing ).

I think we are forgetting about the ‘importance of the dance’
factor so far, too. Some ‘styles’ distinguish themselves as
being more geared toward ‘dance’ than others and THAT
is what helps define ‘the style’ itself.

Example: While ‘savoring the phrase’ might be the
essence of a ‘Clare’ style… all that ‘savoring’ can often
do nothing but keep a dancer’s feet glued to the floor.

I know a lot of Irish dancers and they would no more put
on a Martin Hayes album to dance to than they would try
and hang-ten in a parking lot. You just can’t ‘catch the waves’
there…

…but go north to a Donegal dance-hall and you can’t even
hear the ornaments UNLESS they are hard-bowed triplets
because of a simple reason… the floor is shaking so hard that no
one is going to hear your ‘savoring’ or ‘volume fluctuations’.

Actually… there is another heavy influence on STYLE
right there… the actual ‘physical environment’ in which
this music is being played. If it’s a quiet little Clare pub
than your ‘savoring’ and ‘volume acrobatics’ can be
appreciated and tend to embed in ‘the style’. If it’s
a dance-oriented envrionment then your ‘style’, whatever
it is, better help the dancers do what they do or you
will find yourself having to hock your instrument and go
back to selling used horses ( in the old days, anyway ).

So it’s CULTURAL as well.

A regional CULTURAL component ( specifically with regards
to dance emphasis ) is what can/does influence the
same regional STYLE ( over time ).

Totally agree.

I think that article is fantastic and wish I had found it sooner
but it DOES have that obvious limitation. It mentions the
‘FAB FOUR’ and seems to be going for name recognition
rather than full topic coverage.

Can’t blame him. As your ( incredibly detailed ) posts show
the ‘topic’ itself can become a bottomless pit. You have to
‘limit’ the discussion at some point.

Which, I guess, is all I was really trying to do with this thread.

I KNOW there are a myriad of different ‘styles’ within ‘styles’
but I also know that, at this point in time, there are also
the accepted ‘major regional styles’ that keep getting referred to
over and over and over ( Sligo, Donegal, Clare, Kerry, Gallway, etc ).

So my inevitable ‘topic limitation’ at this time was just a simple
request to see if we can ‘qualify’ these ‘major regional styles’ that
everyone seems to be familiar with but ( as this thread proves
so far ) no one seems either willing or able to ‘codify’.

I still think it can be done… and with no disrespect
to the music or all of the other ‘variation upon variation’
of the same ‘style’.

I still think the MAJOR features of the MAJOR regional styles
can be ‘talked about’ and don’t require 9,000 hours of
listening time to achieve and just produces one more
player who says “I know it when I hear it but I don’t
know how to describe it to you… go buy 900 CDs like
I had to do.”

I am revising my DO and DON’T list, which I started this
thread with, based on the postings so far and all of the
links presented so far and I think I am close to a much
better ‘rough guide’ of my own for the ‘major regional styles’

At risk of life and limb I will probably post that updated
‘rough guide’ soon… unless someone else beats me to it.

I still think the ‘rythmn makes the style’ point was
fascinating and would like to hear more about what others
think about that.

Could it really be true? The ‘rythmn’ is the major distinguishing
factor BETWEEN the major ‘regional’ styles and also the
major ‘unifying’ factor WITHIN the variations of the same style?

Fascinating to consider and maybe the ‘silver bullet’.

Callahan

PS: I just have to ask. What ‘style’ would you say that
YOU play and, if multiple ‘styles’… what exactly do you
do differently ( physically and technically ) when you
‘shift gears’? I’d love to hear some specifics from someone
of your experience ( and who still seems to be alive! ).

When you play for the sets (or the occasional stepdancer) you adapt your rhythm to suit. Martin Hayes would (he would not play the way he plays at his solo concerts when he is playing for a ceili with the Tulla).
Junior Crehan said ‘the house dances were my university’ and most players will have laid the foundations for their playing while playing for the sets. Martin Hayes as much as the rest of them. I have heard Martin Rochford play for stepdancers and it worked well (I have the recording to prove it), good playing has the underlying rhtyhm and will suit the dancer when needed. Clare music is pretty much grounded in playing for the sets (around here mostly a version of the Caledonian set, reels, jigs and a hornpipe so, you come across the odd group who want a plain set but that’s about it around the county). I mean, you can savour the phrase and sit on the long note and still please the dancers.
Ceilibands are often overlooked in discussions here but don’t forget all sorts of musicians teamed up to play with them, people who can be considered unbeatable for expression and variation, personal style and all that all played with the bands in their day. Martin Rochford formed one of the first bands, The Ballinahinch Ceiliband with Paddy Canny in 1942, this became the Tulla later (because someone suggested the shorter name looked better on the bass drum) and Canny played with them for 40 years or so, Martin Hayes was playing the banjo with them at 14 and still appears as the fiddler when he’s around. ‘Everybody’ played with them be it Casey, Clancy, Joe Cooley, Tony McMahon, then there was the KIlfenora which had, among many others, Tommy Peoples (he married the leader of the band’s daughter), around Miltown the Laictin Naoifa was big and again the line up includes a who is who in West Clare music of the day. Today the Ennis ceiliband is doing well or the young ones of the Barefield, and the latest instalment of the Kilfenora is still going as is the Tulla.