So, I bought a used Deering 17-fret tenor banjo.
It is an absolute blast to play, but I have one
problem. I can get the bridge positioned correctly
so that the top 3 strings (D-A-E) are in tune up
the fretboard. I cannot, however, find a good
placement for the G string. When the open G is
in tune, the frets are all very sharp. I have
moved the bridge as close to the tailpiece as it
will go, and it’s still sharp. Is there some way to
compensate for this? Could I use a different gauge
of string, or a different tailpiece?
So far, I’ve been compensating by just tuning to
the fretted notes and letting the open G be pain-
fully flat… Not a long-term solution for me…
If you’re moving the bridge back and forth while keeping it completely perpendicular to the strings, you may not find that sweet spot. On mine, I have to use a slight angle to get everything in tune. I think it must be because of the string thickness needed. Try angling the part of the bridge where the G string goes closer to the tailpiece than the part with the E string.
Both. The second fret is especially noticeable to
the ear. It makes chording hard, too.
Oh, I’ve got it almost at a 45 degree angle to keep
the E in tune. I’m just stuck because I’m already at
the tailpiece on the G side and I still need more
distance for the G to be right.
I was considering a Moon bridge but I’m worried that I’ll
still be butting up against the tailpiece on the G side.
My tenor came with the no-knot tailpiece. Once I switched to one that gave some downward pressure on the bridge, I actually needed less of an angle on the bridge. I’m not sure why that is, but I don’t think a no-knot would help.
It’s strange that you’re having such a problem here, as I’ve always heard good things about Deering. Having the bridge at a 45 degree angle seems way excessive. Is there any problems with the action, maybe a slightly bowed neck? You may be best off heading over to www.banjohangout.org. There’s a forum there specifically for set-up that may be able to help you more.
I may be missing something but from the description of your symptoms could there be a problem with the nut slot for the G string? If your nut was not cut to fit heavy gauge strings, the G string could be riding high so that when the open string is in tune, the fretted notes on that string are sharp. Just a possibility to consider. There could be other setup issues including tailpiece type and downpressure (as mentioned), head tension, neck relief (truss rod adjustment), neck angle (coordinator rods) etc. I know there are some experienced banjo luthiers in NC, you might find some shops and names by searching the banjo hangout site (already suggested).
Interesting. I was going to take it in for a fret
dress anyway. I guess I’ll do so sooner rather
than later. I was having so much fun I didn’t
want to be without it too long, but I guess I
have to bite the old bullet…
That’s an excellent point!
Funny how they call these things Irish tenor but then set them up and string them up for CGDA tuning. I remember taking a file to my bridge when I first tried to use GDAE tuning.
CGDA is the tuning used for Dixieland & New Orlean’s jazz playing. It’s a higher tuning, like putting a capo on the 5th fret of a GDAE-tuned banjo. Here’s a nice example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqRKjPSKWbM
I left it with Greg yesterday. He really knows his stuff!
He’s going to put a contact mic on it and run that through
a compressor before sending the sound to the spectrum
analyzer (apparently that helps to focus the sound and
remove the overtones on the banjo so the analyzer can
really get down to brass tacks).
Right off the bat, he thought that it might do better with
heavier gauge strings all around. He said he’d check the
sizes he has on his 17fret at home for a starting place.
He can make me a compensated bridge if necessary (cool!),
and there might be some room for the nut to move down,
so there seems to be some options.
CGDA is the tuning tenor banjos were designed for; in fact, I believe this is how they acquired the name ‘tenor’. They were born as a rhythm instrument loud enough to be heard over the rest of the band in the days before the invention of the electric microphone. Back when amplification was a horn, instruments fought a viscious, survival-of-the-loudest war on the bandstand.
As crookedtune suggested, I left the banjo with Greg Hanson, and he did some great work! He
created a compensated bridge and put on strings
of a much higher gauge. He said I could go even
higher if I wanted. This helped a lot, but there
was more room for improvement. So he put on a
bone nut and shaved the end of the fretboard to
move the nut in a bit. Man, what a great sound it
has now!
Support your local luthier. They know their business.
Great news that the banjo is working right. Interesting that your luthier actually shaved the end of the fretboard. Was this necessary because of the replacement nut he used, or was the fretboard length there defective as originally built?
But I am not surprised that nut work was needed to solve the problem. Despite the thread title, your symptoms were classic “fault where one string crosses the nut:”
1)The problem was mainly on one string.
2) When that open string was in tune, the fretted notes were sharp, especially the second fret. [ Possibly the first fret would have been sharper still but more rarely played] This means either A) that the distance from where the string contacted the nut to the second fret was too long (due possibly to incorrect angle of the nut slot or possibly to the actual first or second fret positions being misplaced – the latter unusual in a modern factory banjo), or B) the string was going sharp when fretted at the early frets due to excessively high action at the nut (because the nut itself was too high or the slot too narrow to allow a thick string to seat properly). My guess was the nut slot, but that may not have been exactly right. Since it sounds as though you were using lighter than normal strings for the pitches you want, the nut slot may not have been the problem, but the sharpening at low frets due to excessive nut height might be worse if the strings are at low tension.
3) The higher fretted notes were less out-of-tune.
. Short scale octave mandolins have similar issues.