T1 for G cut?

Irish Flute
1

So, I have been working on my cuts according to Larsen. He recommends using T2 for a G cut. Problem is I have a slight deformity in this finger which makes this difficult (but not impossible). On the fiddle I often “cut” (not the right word, but you get the idea) a third above the note that is fingered by T3, using T1. So I figured this could work on the flute. That is, I am using T1 to cut the G on the flute. Is there any reason why I should not be doing this? Am I creating a problem for myself down the road?

–Larry

2

It’s fine to cut G with T1, and probably more common. Mr. Larsen suggests you cut with the second-to-bottom finger when possible because he feels this gives the “best” sound. A claim at which I scoff lightly and ignore, preferring instead to use whatever is most convenient for me and for the situation at hand.

3

This is what Bill Ochs says to do in his Whistle book.

4

What the hell is a T1?

Addressing your question about which finger to use for cuts, the answer is that there is no hard and fast rule. Keep in mind that when cutting a note, your goal is not to produce a melodic note but rather an articulation, i.e. a blip of sound that ornaments the tune for a rhythmic purpose. In other words, a cut is not the same thing as a melodic grace note as used in classical flute playing. Therefore, it need not have any particular pitch, as a grace note would.

To produce the articulation of a cut, then, you can use any finger above the note you are cutting. In other words, if you’re cutting an E you can use any of the three fingers of your left hand (assuming you’re a right-handed player) or the index finger of your right hand. To cut an F#, you have available any of the three left hand fingers, and so forth. Some players will always use the same finger for cutting no matter the note, while others will always cut with the finger right above the note being played (e.g. the right hand index finger for E, the third finger of the left hand for F3, etc.). And some players use a combination of these two approaches. (Of course for the notes A and B you have only one choice, which is to cut with your right hand index finger.)

So what approach should you take, then? Avoid any proscriptions from Larsen or anyone else, and experiment around on your own. Try different fingers and see which one produces the crispest cuts for you, on your instrument and with your anatomy, and then do that. Remember the goal - a crisp, clean rhythmic articulation, not a note - and then do whatever it takes to get there.

This is my big problem with the likes of Larsen. Flute playing, indeed any instrument playing for that matter, is a very physical thing that is tied closely to the player’s anatomy and physical makeup. Flute playing probably moreso than any other instrument, what with the breath, the embouchure and fingering all having direct physical connections. And every flute player’s physical makeup is absolutely unique, so what works for one may not work for another. Thus there can be no hard and fast rules on how to play, yet Larsen has written a book full of them. My advice would be to ditch the book, and instead start listening and practicing. Do what you need to do to get the sound you want. This is not to say that you shouldn’t seek out the advice of other players, either here on C&F or better yet in person. And of course, if you have a teacher nearby take advantage of that. But don’t ever think you can learn anything about how to play the flute from a book!

Apologies for the rant, but it is early on a Monday morning where I’m at. More coffee…

5

Coming back to this thread after a search on cuts. I’m just curious as to what finger people use for cutting a note. I know that it doesn’t matter that much as the actual pitch of the cut is unimportant as long as it’s higher. But I have the habit over the years on whistle and now flute of cutting by lifting the same finger as I play the note with. i.e. if I want to separate two consecutive 'E’s, I play the E, then lift that finger to blip a higher note before slapping it back down to play the E again. I’ve tried several other fingers but none to seem to give same effect to my ear (I think I get a bit more punch if I want it), however I note all written authorities on the matter always mention using a finger above the finger playing the note. There must be a reason for this: can someone explain as it has always passed me by! Thanks

6

The first finger of your top hand. That’s the left hand if you are a right-handed player.
So B2 (Bottom 2) is the middle finger of your right hand (again, if your right-handed.

7

[quote=“johnkerr”]So what approach should you take, then? Avoid any proscriptions from Larsen or anyone else, and experiment around on your own. Try different fingers and see which one produces the crispest cuts for you, on your instrument and with your anatomy, and then do that. Remember the goal - a crisp, clean rhythmic articulation, not a note - and then do whatever it takes to get there.

[quote]

Agreed, from limited flute experience. Books are great for giving ideas when yer out of ideas, but the music’s the thing. Thank goodness for the internet: in 20 minutes we can hear a dozen reputable (and different) examples of how to do anything!

8

Yes. Amen. Ditto. Uh-huh. I cut with 1, 2, or 3 depending on what note I’m coming from and what’s going to give me the quickest, cleanest result. Though I think I use my index finger the least – especially on Gs – I find it awkward and unbalancing (of course, being that Mr. Pratten wasn’t a Ms., this could have something to do with my girly hands vs. the flute design).

I often hear this; newish players and those playing in a vaccuum with nothing but books get so hung up in the mechanics of SOUNDING THE NOTE that’s supposed to be a cut or tap they miss the point: as has been said above, a cut isn’t really a note at all! It’s actually a form of articulation (i.e., note separation), a “blip” – a mere setup for the note to follow. [That’s how my teacher explained ((and explained, and explained :boggle:!) it to me anyway]

So yeah, I wouldn’t worry about it. As long as you’re getting a good crisp little hiccup that doesn’t interfere with the G it doesn’t matter whether the cut sounds like an A or a B or a C#, even – it shouldn’t be long enough for most folks to tell it’s even really a note! My philosophy after 10 years: In Irish flute, there’s not so much doing right: There’s only sounding right (which, IMO, is WAY, WAY, HARDER than doing right – alas).

9

Flutered, one reason that “higher finger” cuts are used is that they’re less likely to produce a “blip” with a distinct tonal center. For example, the “same finger” E cut you describe may end up sounding more like a triplet (3E^FE than E{^F}E if you can hear the F#.

A more important reason: Ascending cuts become more problematic. A sequence like D{^F}E{G}F{A}G might sound more like a stepped melody D/^F/E/G/^F/A/G instead of D{A}E{A}^F{B}G using T3 and T2 cuts. And descending cuts are literally impossible using your technique! Try playing G{G}^F{^F}E{E}D without articulating the cuts. Impossible. Whereas G{A}^F{G}E{G}D works fine using T3 and B1 cuts.

If you find Larsen’s approach too rigid, then experiment. But by sticking with what you described, you’re depriving yourself of a valuable and necessary technique.

10

Thanks MT,
that sounds like a reasonable explanation to my query re using higher fingers. I must play around more again; I have tried different fingerings before but I must admit when I play without thinking about it, I always slip back to my present method.

11

I haven’t looked at the MadforTrad tutorial for quite some time but looking over it again, I see that Seamus Egan varies the grace note used to cut according to his fancy. In Connaughtman’s Rambles he cuts the A’s just by blipping the A finger which is as I do. But then he varies other cuts and remarks that it makes a subtle difference.

12

A technical reason that some fingers don;t work for certain notes has to do with flute physics.

On reeded instruments (or at least GHB, my background) there’s no problem using pretty much any finger to cut because the chanter won;t get hung up in some type of odd harmonic on the return to the melody note. This doesn’t necessarily work on a flute. If you try to cut a low D with the top index finger, you wil very likely pop into the second octave. This is just a drastic example, but applies to other cut/note combinations as well.

I use every finger as the situation warrants.


Somebody remind of the rationale Grey uses for his ‘rules?’

13

In defence of Larsen,

  • Grey does go to great lengths to describe the way cuts etc are articulations rather than grace notes. There are not that many tuition books that do this - I even hear experienced players at sessions describing ornaments as “grace notes” and giving beginners the wrong idea. Grey deserves kudos for getting this straight.

  • Grey’s book tries to give a systematic way to learning the various types of articulation. Some might find it too prescriptive, but it does give the struggling beginner some good points of reference. Plus, if I had never read the book, I would never have thought of the idea of using a finger other than the “noting” finger for cuts.

  • For all the criticism I have seen on this forum about Grey’s rigidity and formality, I don’t see as much in the book. He encourages experimentation and trying different ways of doing things, as far as I can see.

No, you can’t learn a tradition from a book. But you can take the tradition home after the session and work on getting things to work better once you have heard what you are supposed to be playing. Thank God (or Allah or …) Grey took the trouble to put this stuff down on paper.

14

Agreed. It’s actually a really good book. Lots of topics, well illustrated, and includes 2 CDs, heaps of examples… One could argue that a teacher’s job is to present a well constructed, pablumized model to the student. A model which provides a foundation and can be built upon (I like his idea of stacked ornaments). When the student is well grounded, she can stray from this model as she sees fit. Also recall that there’s a component just for Boehm players, which is to say his teaching approach is somewhat classically inclined.

15

one might think that Oberlin might have taught him something, eh? :laughing:

16

Well, a degree from a music conservatory can teach a person to be overly rigid in their approach to music … :slight_smile:

But I don’t think that’s the case with Grey. I knew him a bit when he first began playing around Bloomington (Indiana) in the mid 70s, and found him to be open and creative. A good teacher knows that you can thoroughly confuse a beginning student by showing them a dozen different ways to do something. Better to say, “Do it this way … for now. Then, when you have more experience, you can make your own decisions and develop your own personal style and technique.” I think that’s all that’s involved.

17

You seem to think that I meant that in a negative way. :smiley:

Ma is an alumni of that same institution. Voice scholarship…she was not what I’d cal rigid about music.
Now dad is a bit rigid musically, but he’s as tone deaf as a stump so we don’t pay him much attention.

I posted after M31 and was inferring that Grey might have picked up some pointers on instruction technique during is time in academia…

18

Nah, Oberlin’s a fine school, especially for music. I was accepted there myself, but ended up elsewhere. Otherwise today I might be writing hefty flute and whistle books instead haunting the dark corridors of Fiff & Chipple. So I’m just jealous. :slight_smile:

19

I find this comment boils things down very nicely.

I know it can be hard when you’re a new beginner to flute and want to learn without much in the way of resources.

But don’t be afraid to just dig in. Learn the very basics, get a few tunes under the belt, listen listen listen, then practice practice practice.

Recording self is good.

M

People, should we continue to say things like “It works for me (flute on shoulder, piper’s grip, T1 cut instead of T2 etc etc etc ad infinitum) but is it wrong?”
If it works for you, because you have a hand/shoulder/finger/neck whatever the heck “deformity”, then work with what you’ve got.
Now go ahead and flame me while I get my next cup of coffee.

20

That’s true, the physical aspect is sometimes a factor. For example, my skinny, bony fingers curve in odd directions, enough to make even piper’s grip difficult on some instruments. So I’m happy that playing with my right pinky often works for me, and probably Dracula, too.

Mmmmm … coffee …