Smoking Ban imposed in Ireland

In the UK, the Student’s Union imposed a ban on smoking in all Student Uni’ bars. They were forced to repeal that decision when profits crashed through the floor.

I think also you need to understand that in the UK, it is smokers, via the incredible amount of tax levied against them, that are paying for the health service (and a few other services too). If every smoker in the UK quit tomorrow, the UK would be bankrupt by the end of the month.

The mainstay of Britain’s tax revenues is tobacco. Then alcohol and fuel. That’s why those three items take the hit in every budget. Here in the UK, a pack of 20 cigarettes is now around $12 US.

I imagine it won’t be long before the ban imposed in Ireland is reversed.

Exactly.
The vast majority of barstaff support the ban - http://www.thepublican.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=6106&d=32&h=42&f=23&dateformat=%25o-%25B-%25Y
The majority of people in the country support the ban - http://www.examiner.ie/breaking/2003/11/04/story120064.html


it will be remembered as the one good thing this horrible government has done for Ireland. which is their plan no doubt.

as someone on the rte website said

Smoking kills. Fact. Attempts by smokers to try to justify polluting the air that others have to breathe are pathetic.

its funny though, i’ve never before found myself on the side that has nazi allegations hurled at them! interesting..

cost of the NHS - £37 billion
tax revenue from tobacco - £9.5 billion
total tax revenue - £340 million

are you sure your not exagerating a little bit?

edit: double post, sorry

"The vast majority of barstaff support the ban " Where in the article quoted does it state that? One union’s delegates voted on a motion. This wasn’t a referendum of all bar staff in the country. If you have any knowledge at all about how unions operate, you wouldn’t be making that sweeping statement!

“The majority of people in the country support the ban” - the second statement, and the linked article itself is completely specious too. It says:

"The Office of Tobacco Control found 81% of people questioned think bar owners should comply with the law, including 61% of smokers. The new law takes effect at the end of next January.

Valerie Robinson from the OTC said: "This survey shows there is overwhelming public support for the law. It also tends to support the view that this measure to provide people - especially staff - with a safe, clean, healthy environment will, to a considerable extent, be self-enforcing.
"

So, an anti-smoking action group conducted a ‘survey’ of an unknown number of people of unknown affiliation…and then makes the completely specious deduction about “the majority of the people in the country.” BS. For all we know, this anti-smoking action group surveyed 5 of its own members. This wasn’t a public referendum.

Interestingly, I just conducted a survey. The overwhelming landslide majority think the ban in Ireland is a complete crock. The vast majority think that people who work in pubs and clubs do so voluntarily and might reasonably be expected to have noticed the stinky smoky boozy environment when they applied for the job. Therefore, the general public clearly supports reversing the ban immediately, and obliging all employees in stinky smoky boozy environments to sign a declaration that they are volunteering to work in a hazardous environment.

Smoking kills. Fact. Attempts by smokers to try to justify polluting the air that others have to breathe are pathetic.

So does alcohol. That substance is responsible for millions of man-hours lost productivity in the workplace. Death on the highway, violent assault, domestic misery, criminal damage…hospital casualty departments and police cells are never more full than they are at weekends thanks to this poison. In fact, more human misery than you can shake a stick at.

But lots of people like it (and tobacco too). That’s why the government here loves it - billions in tax revenue every year. There are some cynics on this side of the pond who believe that the government’s latest foray into ‘decriminalising’ other poisons (notably cannabis) is simply the first step to legalising, and then taxing, the consumption of that substance too.

Apologies for the long post - but I do think you need to consider the economic and social ramifications of “banning” anything before knee-jerking. In this case (the ban on smoking in public places, such as pubs, in Ireland), you need to consider the case of the Students’ Union ban and subsequent repeal I posted earlier. It could very well be that any bar-staff applauding this ban might soon find the ‘clean air’ they are breathing is down at the local job-centre, alongside their former employers…

Yes. If smokers and drinkers quit their habits, income tax here would need to rise to about 95p in the pound in order to cover the shortfall. There simply wouldn’t be enough time for the government to adjust its spending/borrowing and introduce emergency measures to cover costs in the event that smokers/drinkers quit overnight.

There is a very real feeling that the government in Ireland has ‘shot itself in the foot’ with this measure. It will impact not only those who smoke, and not only the establishments they used to frequent, but all the subsidiary related industries too (catering, brewing, distilling, the obvious ones, right down to the local company supplying hand-towels to those establishments).

You might not recall the ‘fuel tax demonstrations’ of a few years back here in the UK (the government called it a ‘blockade’…it wasn’t). The country was virtually crippled within a week by a lack of fuel at the pumps, and the economic impact was “significant” enough for the government to seriously consider employing the military to ensure delivery of fuel to the filling-stations.

Whatever else one thinks of the ban, this is not an opinion prevailing in Ireland, not in media coverage nor ‘on the street’. In fact the implementation of the ban went very smoothly so far, with even the KJerry publicans backing down from their initial threat not to enforce the ban on their premises.

What happens here with our “free” societies is they enforce more and more petty rules “for our own good” which “they know better”:

• What, where to eat, drink
• When, where, how to drive/ride
• Where and when we may walk, or swim (but don’t go further than the garden fence, junior!)
• What to think of the world generally (state propaganda being the grown-ups’ catechism)
• Where to smoke (can’t even smoke in the loo, now :stuck_out_tongue:)
• What to wear
Generally what to do with our own body

When it’s done through education, I often agree.

When I hear it’s ‘because we after all pay for your health’, then it reminds me the usual argument to silence a teen-ager: remind him who pays the bills…

When it’s enforced rules, otherwise a slap or a spank–“you’ll understand later t’was fer your own good”

Our governments always tended to patronize us–the “masses”
But now, it’s the process of our total infantilization.

The paradox is our society behaves with us in the ways we’re told at the same time not to educate our children.

You may totally deny the above–it will help to feel better.
I’m sure the average ant is happy: it’s genetically adjusted.
We’ll find the molecule for humans: Prozac and TV are only the stone age of mankind.

drink driving is illegal, violent assault is illegal, etc..

the consequences of alcohol that dramatically affect people other than the consumer come about through illegal actions by the consumer.

thats not the case with tobacco.

Zub, i think we’re in agreement. there’s very few substances im not in favour of legalising, and i think people should be allowed to poison themselves in any way they see fit. But their freedom to do this should stop when they put lives in danger other than their own.

:slight_smile: I’m in Swindon, don’t forget. And now Ireland has set a ‘precedent’ that various holier-than-thou groups can point to, I daresay the prevailing opinion in my recent survey is likely to be the result of folks thinking “ah cr*p, I suppose we’re next then.” But I’d need to conduct another survey to be able to confirm that suspicion and then make a sweeping statement about the vast majority of the public here based on its results.

I can’t help despising ‘bans’ of any kind, not just because I suffered from one (I spent 15 years training, competed at World Championship level, and had Olympic aspirations…then the Government here banned my sport and criminalised me. Since then, of course, armed crime has risen, not fallen. Yes, I was a target-shooter).

It vexes me that the word “ban” has been uttered by our governments more in the past ten years than in the past hundred.

When governments ‘ban’ something, they are removing not only your choice to do or not to do something, but removing every subsequent generation’s freedom to choose to do or not do that thing.

I choose not to partake in hunting, for example (another emotive subject). I choose to drive a car, I choose not to own a television set, I choose to read books by authors I find interesting. Others will make different choices, according to the same freedoms, and though I might have opinions regarding their choices (as they have about mine), I respect their freedom to go about their lives as I go about mine. Obviously the hope is that my choices will not adversely impact their lives, nor theirs mine.

When 633 nest-featherers (with whom the vast majority of people have virtually nothing in common) deny me the freedom to make my own informed choices, I am diminished, and so is everyone else, not just now, but evermore. That’s what a “ban” is, as Zoob rightly alludes.


Here’s an On Topic article that shows just how much of an impact Governments can have on even the simplest of human activities:

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/crehan.htm

The whole piece is worthy of the reading, but here I am referring to the paragraphs headed “Decline in the Countryside”

Oh that’s all right then. Part-ee on.

If I may paraphrase a quote from your earlier post:

Drinking kills. Fact. Attempts by drinkers to try to justify the carnage and misery they create by claiming it’s just ‘illegal actions by the consumer’ are pathetic.

For what it’s worth, this is not the dancehalls act. We played music on Sunday night, as it happens in the location where Junior Crehan played his fiddle and smoked his fags every sundaynight for the last thirty or so years of his life. We continue on what he did there. Around twelve it was anounced from behind the bar the ban was in place, that the law would be flouted for that night as a courtesy but would be enforced from next week onward. We played ‘Auld Lang Syne’ and ‘The Irish Washerwoman’ in the overall slightly giggly atmosphere not a bad word was heard and things, drinking, music, dancing will continue on as usual next week and every sunday after.

But to an extend I agree with you, it is selective. Drink and obesity cause probably more misery in ireland than smoking and are responsible for probably as many deaths.

[edited for spelling and typos galore to humour Blackhawk and the snobes]

agreed! if a drinker causes carnage and misery (through RTA’s, assault, etc), they should be held accountable for it.

Of course I agree with you. Except:

The Irish law is totally excessive. The “home office” point is a caricatural proof that this act was passed without serious and proper discussion and/or deliberation. I’ll abstain from ranting on other “totalitarian” laws that make Eire an oddball in the European context… However:

  1. I think the publican shoud have a right to have a “smokers’ lounge” with all assurance made the smoke doesn’t get in the other room.
    I further think he should have the right to post out side “SMOKERS ONLY” and chose his patrons just as they should have a choice. This may happen if he just doesn’t have the premises, or staff, for two separate rooms.

  2. I believe education–in the sense of “good education”, too–is better than laws. In proper clubs, or mansions, it used to be there was a “smoking lounge”. Incidentally, this word stuck in French language where “smoking” means a “tuxedo” (suit). Even in Cuba, the Mecca of tobacco, some cigars (“cazaderos”) are supposed to be smoked only outdoors.
    We are in terribly bad-mannered societies, getting worse, and we try to prevent it by more laws, instead of education at least for a part.

  3. What will happen is more and more people will gather in private lounges. After a while, more and more of these will mention BYOB to the guests.
    Given the Irish government attitude, it’s either lose face, or ban further. Your choice:

  4. Private parties. Then how many guests count as a party?

  5. Ban BYOB parties? You’ll have roses around the bottles of whiskey (‘here’s for you!’). I agree it’s more elegant than these brown paper bags one sees in the US just to sip a beer on the sidewalk…

  6. Ban smoking altogether. Right, give all the tobacco income to the mob: some will fall back to the sailors, who badly need it with the 2004 fishing regulations.

I’m very serious about this private parties danger. I say danger, because many will involve teen-agers, without the attendance of adults, like at least the publican, or disco club owner, who do inforce some kind of control on the “kids”.
You can’t put a cop behind every house, and I believe most public ones are pretty well kept.

  1. Too much laws kill The Law
    … but it makes lawyers happy. Btw, Ireland has been seriously drifting in the past years to American habits, i.e. sueing anyone about anything.

(Next thing you know, I can’t even microwave a yorkshire terrier when I fancy…) :frowning:


DANGER!
Dangerous semantic drift here. And a proof the harm is done.

Since when did we start using “consumer” when the proper word is “citizen”?

I think Peter has it right there. There is support for the move in Ireland for a number of reasons:

  1. It is there to protect those working in bars and other affected work places. These workers are in favour of the ban. There is also (quiet) support amongst larger bar owners who can see the law suits down the road if things do not change.

  2. Due to our cold weather there is little tendency to open windows and doors and consequently little natural ventilation.

  3. There has been little effort on the part of our publicans to do anything to address the smoke levels in their pubs despite the obvious health implications for their customers.

  4. People know that it will take a lot more than a smoking ban to drive us from our beloved pubs!

Generally I am against Big Brother legislation but speaking a musician who has played for a living in pubs, I believe it is a good thing. I believe that bar workers and musicians playing tunes (or at least reels) are more susceptible to passive smoking than the average punter due to increased respiration rates. The fact that I have a family member who died in his early 40s from throat cancer probably as a result of playing several nights a week in smoke filled pubs may be one of the main reasons for this belief.

I don’t know what all the fuss is about. Smoking kills, not just the smoker, but every other person they infect with their habit as well. In Ottawa, we’ve had a smoking ban for a few years now, and you know what, all the bars didn’t go belly up. There wasn’t a sudden rash of bans of everything else under the sun. It’s stupid argument latched onto by some smokers, crying cause they can’t have a smoke with their beer, and are too flippin fat and lazy to go stand outside for the 5 minutes it takes to have a smoke. This sudden crying out of “if you legislate anything, then we’ll all be living in Nazi germany next week”, is utter stupidity and fear mongering of the worst degree.

One of the problems with leaving it up to the individual bar/restaurant owner, whether or not they wan’t their club to be smoke free or not is that, given two paths, the owners invariably will travel down the path of least resistance (that being allowing smoking). The bar and restaurant owners have had that choice open to them for years, and the result was every flipping bar and restaurant was a smoking establishment (or had a “smoke-free section” ..yeah right, the smoke just stops at that invisible boundary between the smokers and non-smokers sections). The end result is that if left up to the individual owners, every public establishment would be a smoking establishment, and I would have no choice about whether I wanted to go to a smoking or non-smoking establishment. And I don’t believe, that choosing never to go out to a public place is really a viable choice. Maybe in some dreamland but not in the real world.

As to the smoker’s rooms. I personally would see nothing wrong with a room, with a seperate ventilation system, and entrance taking a small (note I said small) percentage of the owner’s availible space, providing tha t the staff did not have to enter the room (ie: if the fat lazy smoker wants a drink, he can get it him/herself). The problem the city of Ottawa found in it’s study of this were mostly twofold. First, not every bar owner can afford to construct a completely sealed off room on their property, meaning that some bar and restaurant owners (those with the most money and commericial space), would have a very definate leg up on the owner’s who couldn’t afford it. Secondly, there is no viable means to police whether or not an owner is forcing staff to enter a smoking room. As to the private club idea, again this creates the problem that every owner simply calls themselves a private club, and before you know, there are no longer any nonsmoking establishments.

I guess in the end, the point of my rant is that if some inconsiderate goon wants to kill him/herself slowly, great, I’m all for it, go ahead, have a blast (I don’t like having to pay their medical bills but that’s another issue, don’t like paying the medical bills of obese people either). Where I have the problem is where that same inconsiderate lout is too bloody lazy to haul his fat but out of his chair/ off of his barstool, walk the agonizing few yards to the front door, and smoke his cigarette outside, but would rather infect everybody else with his poison. If it’s not legislated, then it’ll never happen. I can barely count the number of times I’ve told some pinhead not to light up his smoke in my car or house, to get glared at like some Nazi. The point being that if smokers won’t even show the consideration to not smoke in an ex/non smokers place of residence, they sure as hell won’t be willing to not smoke in public places.

anyway, my rant my 2.5. Take it how you want.

Where did this idea that smokers are a “race” of people come from? They’re people with a bad habit, that’s all. Makes me laugh when I hear people complain about the poor smokers standing outside in the freezing cold smoking their cigarettes. I feel sorry for people who have to walk their dogs when it’s cold outside, should I therefore allow them to come into my house and crap on my carpet?
I don’t buy this conspiracy idea that this is all part of “their” (who are “they”?) plan to limit freedom and eventually have us all doing slave labour. These are democracies where people vote on people based on their policies. If people feel really strongly about “smokers rights” tell the opposition parties, if enough people do feel threatened by smoking bans, then they’ll run with that as a policy. If they win, they win, if they lose… sorry.

OnTheMoor, the first part of your post, I agree with.

Now the second totally confuses Democracy and Dictature of the majority :roll:

There’s no conspiracy. Self-righteousness has no organized plans. It’s just a mechanism. It will get you too, except if you’re of the “automatically adjusted race”, i.e. an utter conformist.
See, you mention dogs, and these are a minor annoyance in cities. Now some cities have a ban on them, too…

PS: I also wonder how many among those for the ban In Eire, are of those who also never enter a pub, because it’s a place of evil.

Remember: In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up. (Martin Niemoeller)

Stop focussing on the pub, it’s a ban on smoking in the workplace, the pubs being only one of the workplaces it’s aimed at [at it’s extreme end, smoking in the company car is out too :boggle: ]