ITM transmission and pub laws.

Trad Irish Music
1

I realise that this is slightly OT - I just re-read Bloomfield’s Welcome thread - but I think that this is an interesting aspect of ITM transmission, at least in Ireland, so I hope I’ll be forgiven. Well, even tolerated’d be good, I think. :stuck_out_tongue: Please??

Anyway, I came home to Cork about 3 weeks ago, and went to the usual session in Cork on a Wed night. When I left Ireland in June, the music would continue more-or-less until everyone was gone from the pub. In Ireland, I should explain, we have a phenomenon known as ‘drinking-up time’. This is the time, after ‘closing time’ - the time after which no alcohol can be served - where patrons finish the final drink(s) they’ve bought, before heading home. This was (naturally) a somewhat flexible time period, although technically around 30 minutes. So, if closing time was 11.30 (as it is on a Wed night), the session’d finish up at about 12. Ish. However, there is now a new law that all ‘entertainment’ - including, of course, ITM sessions - must cease at closing time. So the sessions are now cut short just at the stage when they’d usually be getting good. And everyone sits around for 30 minutes, finishing their drinks, and trying to find things to talk about 'cause all the instruments are away, and although you’ve thought of 7 great tunes - all in one set, too! - you can’t play any of them now. Grrr.
So, that was ok in Cork. And then I returned home to West Cork, where there is a somewhat more lax approach to licensing laws in general, and a thriving back exit/blackout curtain industry and Garda warning system (for the drinkers, not the Gardaí!), and the session the next week went on til 2. So that was ok, and I thought no more of it.

Tonight I went to another session near Bantry, which happens on the first Friday of every month. The session, as always, was good. However, Rialtas na hÉireann, in its infinite wisdom, also decreed that anyone under the age of 18 must vacate all licensed premises once the hour of nine is reached each evening. So, no kids after 9, thanks to the Govt. of Ireland. That came into effect on Oct 1, so this was the first Friday that it was an issue. Ergo, no kids at the session, which is a big pity. In Bantry, they’re starting to get close to the critical mass where there are enough kids involved that playing ITM isn’t horribly uncool, and a lot show up at the first Friday session, and play for the night. But tonight they were being firmly ejected from the pub.

These laws (there’s also the one where anyone who appears to be drunk cannot be served alcohol - this is at the discretion of the publican, naturally, who will then be held responsible should anyone be found exiting his/her premises in an inebriated state) are being introduced in an effort to cut down on under-age drinking, and the pub culture in general, in Ireland. (18 is the legal drinking age in Ireland, by the way). They’ve introduced an identity and ‘age card’ system, and have decided that anyone between the ages of 18 and 21 has to have government ID to be in a pub after 9. While this is a logistical nightmare for publicans, it might turn out to be a good incentive for 15 and 16 year-olds not to head for the local pub at the weekend to get drunk. I’m all for cutting down on the amount of alcohol consumed - I walk home after closing time through Cork city, after all - and the number of under-age drinkers, but I do have some concerns about the detrimental effect of these laws on ITM.

In Ireland, the main venue for ITM is the pubs. There are towns (for example Ennis) where you can have a choice of maybe up to 5 or 6 pubs, with different musicians playing, on a given night, and many of those musicians will be under 18 (more at weekends, of course, than during the week… School is a terrible thing for a musician :stuck_out_tongue: !). And smaller towns (for example Bantry) might only have between 5 and 10 musicians in the area, and only 1 or 2 sessions a month during the winter, but if there’s a session people - usually kids - who are learning to play will go along to listen, and will get to play. People record tunes that they don’t know, to learn over the next month. Kids get to start tunes and realise that playing with other people is where it’s at. And, over time, you get enough kids involved that going to play at a session on a Friday night isn’t a choice that’ll get you laughed out of school and/or beaten up :sunglasses: . When I was taking lessons in Bantry, there were 3 of us around the same age who played, up until I was about 15. After that, the other 2 slowly dropped below the radar so that when I was 18, neither of them played, so I’d go to sessions with the people that’d been teaching me for the last 10 years. Which was wonderful, but kind of an odd situation if you were trying to make conversation between sets! Now, though, there are some really good 13- and 14-year olds, who go to sessions and have stuff to talk about in between (presumably - what would I know about it?? :laughing: ) and choose [chose] this as something to do. And so the good players who are just a few years younger also go, to listen and absorb, and will take part in a while. At least that’s the theory. But I’m not sure what’ll happen from now on.

I’m also not sure that continuing to let kids into pubs until 9 each day will help reduce under-age drinking. And I feel that keeping the Sunday afternoon family pub outing - which is surprisingly popular in some places - legal, while claiming that kids being in the pub after nine pm contributes to the problem, is a little hypocritical. But then, that’s only my opinion.

What does anyone else think? I’m not contesting that Ireland does need to do something, and I’m not saying that this won’t be effective, but are there any opinions on the possible impacts on ITM (or not)?

Deirdre

2

I was in Ireland this past August when they were just preparing to put these laws in place. I agree that they are rather stupid since it seems that they will not solve the problems they are intended to, and will create lots of nefarious side effects instead (such as crimping ITM and sessions in particular). But there is one thing about sessions in Ireland that I’ve always wondered about. Why do they have to start so late, i.e. at half nine or ten, or even later? Obviously if you don’t get going until after 10:00, you don’t want to be told to stop playing at 11:30. But if they’re going to make you stop at 11:30, why not just start earlier so that you can get in more playing time? If they’re going to kick the kids out at 9:00, why not just start your session earlier, say at half seven or eight so that the kids can get an hour or more of music in before they’re asked to leave the pub? I realize that starting earlier would involve a bit of a cultural shift for the Irish, but there’s no law against it, is there? When I’ve popped into session pubs at earlier hours when I’ve been in Ireland, they’re often empty. Then at half nine or ten, here comes the crowd of musicians and punters and the session begins. Why not just do it an hour or two earlier? I’m sure the publicans would be glad to have the business…

3

I think by and large ‘session pubs’ pay at least a few musicians to be there and if the publicans saw any business in it at all they would require the music to start earlier. As things are, the punters just won’t come in before, like, 10.30. That’s just the way things are.

4

Most of the public sessions in my area get started anywhere around 8:30pm to 9:30pm and on weeknights. This is somewhat problematic for those who have to get up for jobs the next day, especially as we have no 11:30pm ejection time. One exception to this got started on Sundays in a newly opened pub; business was terribly slow, and a couple suggested to the owner the possibility of a session starting around 6:00pm. Sunday business definitely picked up not long after as word got around. Then again, Minnesota ain’t Cork…but it could be worth a try, anyway. Many of the musicians are appreciative of the time frame, too. It starts fairly early, and sometimes a session has gone on as long as five and one-half hours; that’s your 11:30pm right there.

BTW, the owner, of Irish descent, didn’t know what a session was before we got one started there. He loves it. The first couple of months, he couldn’t stop taking photos at sessions. We’re just that beguiling, I guess. :laughing:

5

Well, there are some sessions around Cork that start early - there’s one on the first Friday of the month that starts at 5.30 and people come straight from work. But it always continues until pretty near midnight, which is almost closing time anyway. So I don’t think that would be a solution. You’d have highly inebriated musicians staggering home, having spend 7 or 8 hours playing and imbibing. And that’s also against those laws! :smiley: There doesn’t seem to be an ideal maximum length for sessions - if it’s good, it’ll continue until it’s forcibly stopped, or people physically can’t play anymore. Likewise, if there isn’t a good vibe, a session can finish in under 30 minutes.

The other thing is that often people can’t make it to sessions much before 9, because of jobs etc. And, as Peter pointed out, if there was money in it, the sessions’d be starting at 2pm and continuing. I don’t know…

6

It may be contrary to suggest that it prove not a bad thing, personally I don’t like playing in noisy [and let’s face it most of them are] pubs.

There’s much to be said for taking the music to other places, I still play the most enjoyable tunes in peoples’ kitchens. Last night I played at a small party in a farmhouse on the back of beyong [the black hole on the side of Mt Callan to b precise], just a few neighbours and musicians sitting by the fire, quiet, lovely and as Kitty Hayes said ‘we haven’t the beer talkign all the time’.

For the young people, I don’t know I see keen mothers dragging young ones into sessions where they sit all night to play their three tunes, no fun for anybody I sometimes think. As an alternative the local whistleteacher organses a two weekly session here for the 7-15. Loads turn up, they love it, they get to play their tunes, socialise, dance a set and generally have fun. Each time a ‘mystery guest’ is invited, to give them the opportunity to listen to and to play with an established musician [or musicians]. For example, one night I went to collect my son and found the whole group having tunes with Paddy Canny. They get to hear great music, the are no drunken bollockes getting in the way. From that point of view, I don’t see transmission of music harmed, someone must make the effort though to run and organise something but as a community/local effort I’d think it’s that would be manageable in a lot of places.

7

My experience of Irish sessions is limited to what I’ve seen while on holiday, but I can’t see what purpose shoving the kids out at 9pm will serve.

While in the bar, they’re under everyone’s watchful eye (and presumably with a parent or guardian) and not knocking back neat whiskey by the pint. When they get thrown out on the street, what are they expected to do? Go home & go to bed? wander up and down the street listening to the music from outside? Hang around graffiti-ing the nighbourhood? Go to the Cinema or a youth club, or what?

I spent a couple of nights in Tralee last year, and found it quite intimidating with gangs of youths hanging around on street corners looking dodgy. Surely this behaviour will increase with this new law?

If the children & youths want to listen to and play the music, I can’t see the harm in their being in the pubs. Hopefully some responsible adults will arrange kitchen sessions as Peter describes so these budding players (and I saw many that are far better than I will ever hope to be) don’t get turned into yobs like we have in England.

8

Deirdre,

Your only solution is to move further west where the law is even more universally flouted.

I went to a pub to join a regular session in West Clare last year and the musicians didn’t even arrive till 11p.m. We finished up around 2 a.m.

Martin,
As you will know from the fuss over music performing licences in the UK, the law is a particularly obtuse ass when it tries to regulate people’s drinking.

I’m not “blaming the British”, but we have inherited the laws largely as laid down by the UK government during the first world war only, when we got control of our own affairs, instead of improving them we have made them worse. People used to go out to the pub earlier when I was younger, but as drink became more expensive due to tax increases they left it later and later so as to be there in time for the last mad rush before closing time. Now that the country is awash with money, they still try to cram as many orders in as possible before ‘last orders’ and drinking-up time has had to be extended. Outside the main urban areas the law is largely ignored, but every so often the Guards feel they have to go through the motions so someone gets caught - meanwhile, of course, the Bank Manager, the Vet, the Doctor, the chairmen of the local political party organisations, the members of the local chamber of commerce and not infrequently the Parish Priest are drinking undisturbed in the Residents’ lounge of the local hotel.

They should just allow 24-hour-a-day opening and let market forces and people’s absorptive capacity sort things out, but the transition from now deeply ingrained habits would be too difficult for any government to have the courage to try to negotiate it. Bear in mind, too, that publicans are one of the largest vocational groupings among members of our parliament, and they have a vested interest in the present chaos as it maximises sales while limiting pay bills.

The music is such an insignificant casualty that it will never be taken into account in the political argument.

9

The absorptive rate in Ireland is apparently quite large, to the point where college students are failing to complete their years due to advanced liver problems. It really has come to ridiculous lengths, and Ireland is under some pressure by the rest of Europe to gain some self-control. Obviously there are no responsible adults available to take charge of the situation (probably under a table somewhere). From the news articles I have read, the problem is becoming somewhat epidemic, and not just a few wild youth out for a lark. While I agree that the steps taken so far will not cure the problem, they strike me as the sort of thing that allows a politician to say, “Well, at least we did something.”

I don’t believe there was enough stress put on Peter’s recommendation that sessions for young people need to be organized by caring adults away from the pubs. I would see this as a primary role for a group like NPU (but they may disagree with me :wink: ).

djm

10

In areas like Clare, where there may be 20 or 30 young people of about the same age in an area who are interested in playing, that is a wonderful and eminently feasible seggestion. However, in places like Bantry, where there are probably only 4 or 5 kids with the level of interest and expertise required to maintain such a gathering, I have serious doubts as to whether it would be successful.

And Roger, I should probably clarify: the pub that did refuse to allow kids onto the premises and stopped the session on time is definitely one-of-a-kind around West Cork :smiley: , and (I believe) may have been sticking to the letter of the law in hopes of challenging parts of it over the next few weeks. (However, in other places, I’m sure that the laws will be obeyed, which prompted me to start this thread).

11

In areas like Clare, where there may be 20 or 30 young people of about the same age in an area who are interested in playing, that is a wonderful and eminently feasible suggestion. However, in places like Bantry, where there are probably only 4 or 5 kids with the level of interest and expertise required to maintain such a gathering over time, I have serious doubts as to whether it would be successful.

And Roger, I should probably clarify: the pub that did refuse to allow kids onto the premises and stopped the session on time is definitely one-of-a-kind around West Cork :smiley: , and (I believe) may have been sticking to the letter of the law in hopes of challenging parts of it over the next few weeks. (However, in other places, I’m sure that the laws will be obeyed, which prompted me to start this thread).

12

I’d agree with this. It’ll take some adjusting and creativity, but there’s no need for stricter liquor laws to have any effect on ITM. Those concerned with some loss of “tradition” because of the drinking associated with the music may need to reconsider which part of the tradition it’s most important to save.

Susan

13

Well, from way out here in California: I grew up in a town known for its bars. In reading through all of this I would just say, sarcastically:

Keep it up and soon your pubs can be like many of our bars. The only music will come out of a jukebox. The only patrons will be pissed-off guys looking to make trouble and stay away from home or desperate types looking for “love.” with an occasional burst of energy from a “fun” drunk or a big-screen tv sporting event. All the carpets will be dark and the lights low. Thats the way the bars were in my hometown and I hated em. If you kill the spirit in your pubs, this is what will be left.

I never go into bars here for the reason that this is what I expect to find. Of course its not all true everywhere, but going to England and into those pubs was like a revelation for me. People actually having a good time, singing a song or two and enjoyin their liquor on a time-release basis. Yes, I;m sure there are nasty bars there somewhere where people slam it down fast but I never saw one and I ate and drank in pubs every evening. It was a wonderful part of my experience there. Most of those places had good food so maybe that was part of it.

I think live music, especially played on acoustic instruments, is a very precious thing and I hope these laws do not ultimately kill it off. We’re TRYING to get it going here on a regular basis instead of the opposite.

Because people will drink just as much in the end. But, I am not Irish and don’t have the experience and information to have passed such laws, so who knows…

14

I don’t think it’s been stated in so many words, and maybe I’m reading between the lines incorrectly, but are the new Irish laws now basically the same as England’s? If that’s true (and I don’t know that it is), then according to your statements, Week, the laws won’t change the “atmosphere” in the pubs that much. I mean, the pubs you went into in England were apparently very satisfactory to you and they have the stricter laws that Ireland now has. If I got all that correct, then the stricter laws haven’t been detrimental to the “atmosphere,” right?
Did that make any sense? :boggle:

Susan

15

Well that was in 1985 so its ancient history for me and whatever laws applied, sfx.. I still have fond memories of happy bars tho. It was just a contrast that has stayed with me all these years. Some of our brewpubs try and have that going, though they often turn up the canned rock music so loud that you have to scream, 'cause we all know that’s FUN.

16

Pardon my ignorance, but I’ve been wondering for quite awhile: what’s a punter?

17

A non-musician enjoying the session.

Or at least the punter isn’t playing.

18

As an American who was somewhat recently in England (spring of '01) I can echo that what The Weekenders said as still being correct. My wife and I ventured into any pub that struck our fancy over much of central and SW-England, and we were continually impressed with the atmosphere (and food in a vast majority of cases). The ambience and character are on a whole other level from ‘bars’ in the US which by in large are bland, dirty, and really not much fun (not too metion the beer’s usually bad).

Fortunately, The West Coast of the US has plenty of good brewpubs which have made drinking establishments much more respectable with great beer and a more ‘pubby’ atmosphere, and you’ll even find live music at a few (though sessions are limited strictly to ‘Irish Pubs’ in my experience).

Bear in mind this trip was before my irtrad obsession, and we didn’t stay much later than 10-11 at any place, but if our experience was telling at all - the pub-scene shouldn’t suffer to terribly much. Of course I’ve never been to a pub in Ireland, so I don’t by what ‘bar’ they’re being judged :wink:

Regards,

  • Ryan
19

I should probably reiterate now that I’m not in any way opposed to the spirit of these new laws (no pun intended). Susan, I should also point out that, although much ITM takes place in pubs, and musicians may or may not drink, drinking is not an integral part of the process. In fact, if people are playing, they will generally drink less than they would if they were just out for the evening, because it does get more difficult to play (well) over the course of the night, if you’re imbibing! The fact that many musicians do drink at all is definitely a lot more connected to the prevalent pub culture which exists in the country in general, than to the fact that music is played in pubs.

Also, I’m not criticizing the laws for their effect on established sessions; those will continue. Rather, it’s the removal of one of the few ‘performance’ venues for people learning the tradition. In Ireland, probably uniquely, playing ITM is often not the cool thing to do, especially for teenagers (again, I mention Clare as an exception to this, at least from my vantage point), and it is (at least in my experience) important for people who have talent and interest to see why they’re bothering to go to lessons and learn tunes. And, in Ireland, the main outlet for IT musicians is the pubs. It’s not ideal, but that’s the way it is.

20

Well, I’m not entirely sure of the exact definition, but in Ireland it’s used to describe an onlooker who is connected to whatever the issue being discussed is. So, people who go to pubs are ‘punters’ in the context of pub-related issues; people who go to the races in the context of betting or race outcomes; and voters in a particular constituency would be ‘punters’ in a discussion about a particular candidate or issue. It’s much beloved of the Irish media. If I find anything more informative, I’ll let you know!
Deirdre

Ok, have googled; the Compact Oxford English Dictionary says:

punter

• noun 1. informal a person who gambles or places a bet. 2 Brit. informal a customer or client.

My previous guesses weren’t too bad, all in all (maybe… :stuck_out_tongue: )