Dionys, this is turning out to be a really nice thread…
Going to Ireland to pick-up the pipes, meeting Geoff and having him go over the details of tuning and setup tips… all in the spring/summer. That would turn into an awesome vacation.
Yeah, you could get in Willie Week while you were there too
As far as mammoth is concerned, you can transport it no problem. Just get a letter from Geoff or from the supplier stating that it is in fact mammoth ivory and not elephant ivory, this isn’t necessary, but it is certainly good to have something.
Patrick.
[ This Message was edited by: Patrick D’Arcy on 2002-04-10 17:36 ]
When going through US customs (most other countries are so lax it’s disturbing), it’s best to have as much paperwork as possible. So to whomever buys the set (note to self ) – Secure notes/receipts from Geoff assuring that it is mammoth ivory. You could probably get through without them, but it will be a lot less difficult and annoying if you have paperwork out the wazzoo.
Dionys
We haven’t decided the key these pipes are to be made in!! C and B were mentioned. Is B flat a possible option ??
Personally, I’d love to see a narrow-bore D set. It’s all a matter of opinion, though, and if you purchase it then it’s all a matter of what you can convince Geoff to make.
Dionys
I think the idea is for Geoff to make a set that he is very very proud of and a set in C or B would be his first choice. He can do other sets but why bother?
Patrick.
Just thought this was appropriate…
Patricimo.
Patrick,
Well, if it’s going to be a special set… do something that will stand out. There are other pipemakers doing well with C and D sets but Geoff is the one for a narrow D. I held back on commenting as they (narrow D’s) aren’t regarded well on this board.
The B flat would be different too. Doesn’t Todd Denman play one?
Nope, Todd plays a B.
There is a TON of confusion over this whole “B flat set” and “flat B set” thing.
The majority of stuff you hear that is down that low is in B, even if the sleeve notes say otherwise.
I think this board is open to anything Geoff makes, he’s the best and anything by him is going to be spectacular. But if you want to buy something that touched his heart a B or C is the way to go.
Patrick.
[ This Message was edited by: Patrick D’Arcy on 2002-04-12 13:39 ]
What is it he loves so much about making a B or C? They’re hardly unique these days. I agree, though. He’s probably one of the best makers on the planet right now and someone would be happy to own any one of his sets.
Dionys
A few reactions (I was away andam just in the door from shannon).
Mammoth ivory is legally important from the US (and imported there from russia)the guys have been extinct for 10K years or more (see http://www.osofamoso.com)
Geoff being 'the man’for narrow bore D’s well, they remain a strange hybrid and an acquired taste and they are not the thing he would fancy making.
as to the address, Cloghanmore before the Miltown Malbay would be more precise btu as said, even the Co clare would get the letter there. I eceived one addressed to me a while ago which had the address ‘Ireland’
I recently sent a letter to:
Da New Hoose [Orcadian dialect for the new house]
Near Kirkwall
and it got to the right person
[on Orkney]
Back to the Wooff set. Just thought I would let everyone know that he will not under any circumstances do a ‘D’ set. He would prefer a C or B set, but will do a c# or Bb set if the buyer requests.
His target price is $20,000-25,000 for those interested and with a lot of money. He is, of course, accepting offers.
Dionys
“His target price is $20,000-25,000 for those interested…”
Ouch!
Don’t let this keep you from making offers. I would guess, or perhaps hope, that the successful offer will be below this amount.
Dionys
I’m sorry…$25,000…that’s not even funny!
It’s a collection of wooden tubes with holes in them. I’m sorry, unless the pipes are made by the Lord himself…$25,000?! The bottom line is that the pipes are worth $5000 and the name makes up the difference. Period…
$25,000…hee hee…
Last time I checked there were no Lords or Ladies making pipes. As for what they’re worth, they’re worth what someone is willing to pay for them.
I balk seriously at the $20-25k price, however I understand Geoff’s justification (multiple ones) of the price. Let me bring up some of the ones he brought up. These are not my arguments, and I will critique where I feel like it.
‘The original instruments [he trys] to emulate cost 25-50 [punt] in pre-famine Ireland, which was six months to one years pay for a man with a fair good job.’
This is a valid argument. Of course taking into consideration the world-wide average pay instead of the average american year’s pay would knock his estimate down some. Taking into consideration average Irish pay before the celtic tiger hit would do the same. Taking into account inflation and any other number of factors might knock the number down or up depending on how you look at it. I would be willing to bet if you took into consideration how much a wood flute of that era (for instance a Millhouse or Rudall & Rose), priced it and priced a modern equivalent you would not find the same drastic price increase.
‘I feel the offer price should reflect what a set of [his] pipes will cost in 2016 if one had to join the waiting list, plus the silver and ivory factor, plus not having to wait.’
Sure. In 2016, taking into consideration inflation and market demand, his pipes could easily cost 20-25k. The entire world market could also crash and he might have to sell them for pennies on the dollar. One also could take into consideration that if you could get on the waiting list, you could put around 10k (maybe less depending on your luck) in a stable mutual fund and have easily the 20-25k he would be asking in 2016. What you are paying for is not having to wait. The silver and mammoth ivory, as far as I am concerned, are negligable additions in pre-building cost. What you are really paying for (or should be) is the workmanship. Is Geoff’s workmanship and promise to have his best set in a year worth 20-25k?
‘By suggestion of other interested parties I think $20-25,000 is probable.’
If those other parties are so interested, why haven’t they made a solid offer in that range that he would accept? I don’t know if it’s a probable price range. I do know it’s possible considering all the people out there with lots of money to spend. Someone might buy this set at 20-25kUSD, whether it be someone who is a professional piper with some extra money (haha - Well.. There has to be one out there, right?) or some new-money collector who made serious cash off short-selling Enron before it crashed and burned. I think it is possible that someone will buy that set at that price. Personally I do not think it is probable, but maybe that’s because I don’t have that much cash to throw around.
Then again I might not even buy the set at that price if I had the money. It would buy at least 5 used sets of some really, really good makers. Or two-three new sets.
When I was writing, I was imagining (and hoping for) a somewhat reasonable and somewhat achievable price of a few thousand over half what he is asking. That’s just me, though. Perhaps I’m cheap 
Please do not let my comments and thoughts keep you from purchasing or offering on Wooff’s 25th anniversary set. I can only imagine it will be one of, if not the, most beautiful set(s) he will make. On top of that it will have some historic value and sentiment. Knowing Geoff’s work, we all know it will sound wonderful. It’s just a matter of if it will sound $12-17k more wonderful than someone else’s set. That is up to the purchaser.
Was that a long message? Hmm.
Dionys
Around 1980, just as I was getting started on the pipes an editoial written by Breandan Breathnach appeared in the newsletter of NPU, An Piobaire. In it Breandan aired his disbelief and apprehension at the fact that what everybody had thought unthinkable had in fact happened. As he put it ‘a millennium has arrived in Ireland’. The price of at least one maker’s [Bruce du Ve] full sets had reached one thousend punts. I soon after purchased a full set for 750 so not every maker had gone through that ceiling then.
However; things have taken off from there in the past few years. Geoff Wooff for one, found himself in the situation where his pipes were fetching prices second hand over twice the price he was making them new. How do you respond to that you can wonder.
It is ofcourse all fine to worry about that here, but since Breandan lamented the prices of pipes going beserk, the organisation over which he presided has made no systematic effort to advance pipemaking, no formal training has ever been set up, hardly any knowledge has been gathered and disseminated.
The fact is ofcourse that most pipemakers are struggling to make a half decent instrument, few, have gathered enough knowledge to actually do that. Some make nice chanters, some make nice drones, how many really manage to make all bits going well together, and produce an instrument the player can be fully happy with, ask yourself that question.
So, while the world is rejoicing that piping is saved for another generation, one can wonder who is going to make the instruments for the generation that is now taking up the instrument.
I would think it is time to make a push to get aspiring pipemakers trained so that people deserving of a good instrument can actually obtain one, rather than the nice instruments going to people who can afford throwing a bucket of money at the pipemaker.
Getting off-topic maybe but worth a think-about because it’s at the root of prices going way beyond any reason.
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-04-27 09:54 ]
I’m feeling compelled to remark. 20K to 25K is a whole lot of dough to spend on an instrument. I’m very certain that there are other instrument sthat can garner such a price. Classic violins, a resaonably nice grand piano, few of a kind guitars, &c…
This is an opportunity for someone to purchase an outstanding instrument and enjoy it for a lifetime. It’s rediculous to think that the average Joe (like me) would want to buy this glorified set, just like I wouldn’t buy a Bösendorfer Piano for $180K — that I’ll leave to Oscar Peterson and the like. For some people this would be like buying an original artwork. I’m not implying - because I’ve never actually played a Wooff set - that this will be the paramount of Uilleann pipes. I am saying though, that if I could justify paying that kind of loot as an investment in quality, enjoyment and treasured heirloom, that it would be an enormous privilege to own them. Definitely a status item, but hopefully could be regarded as much more than that. My piano doesn’t get played every day, but I sure love it when I sit down at it, way more than when I sit down at a tiny apartment sized keyboard.
Sometimes emotion outweighs practicality in such a proud investment.
Peter has a very good point which is obviously related to the topic of price (and in Uilleann Piping in general). There are not many makers out there and the number of excellent makers are even fewer. You could easily put the price he is asking down to simple supply and demand.
The other point he laments is that there has been no funding or effort towards formal training and very little effort put towards gathering and disseminating information concerning pipe making / pipe building. I think part of this is that a lot of makers want to keep their special methods to themselves. There are many makers, of course, who want to share as much information as they can (and these are usualy the better makers). The problem is that they have very little time on their hands to do this because they are busy trying to make enough pipes to keep their families alive. So in this aspect, perhaps the 20-25k is valid.
Personally, I would be willing to apprentice to a pipemaker (Brad Angus lives around 20 minutes from me and I would jump at the opportunity to apprentice with him – Any of his good friends would be welcome to pass this along to him). If Geoff Wooff would apprentice me, I’m sure I’d find some way to move myself and my son over to Ireland. Though I would prefer someone local due to custody issues. I’m relatively young, though I would probably be starting somewhat later than many pipemakers.
I think what we need to do to ensure the continuation of knowledgeable pipemakers is to start some kind of apprentice program. Either people willing to apprentice full time to a maker for not much pay (but hopefully enough to stay alive on) or through weekend classes given by a pipemaker.
Beyond that we need to start spreading everything and anything on pipemaking (such as David Daye has done). Post X-rays, measurement listings and computer CAD files on measurements. It’d be ideal if we could find a physics person interested in acoustics that could devote some time/energy (or a paper) on the acoustical properties of Uilleann Pipes.
These are all just beginning suggestions. Let’s come up with some more. I’m going to post this to a new thread: ‘Apprentice Pipemaking’ so we can come up with some ideas. Post if you’re willing to be an apprentice so that pipemakers know there is interest out there.
Dionys