I was told today by a well travelled piper that Rogge makes wide bore D chanters tuned to equal temperment, so as to sound good with hideous noisemakers like box, geetar, etc. All that rubbish. True? Sounds OK until you turns the feckin’ drones on and your ears begin to bleed…kind of a bow to market forces, maybe?
So that’ll be why Sean Potts plays a full set in D by him.
Or Trevor Stuart in Belfast. Or whoever. Loadsof pipers, esp in the North, play his sets.
I’m not falling into the trap of blind faith in a single maker, though.
The tone of the drones might not be to everyone’s tastes.
They’re not always the easiest squeezes compared to some D sets. Chanter tone has been debated already on this site, but tuning tends to be pretty good.
I sent a tape of my set [played by me] to Robbie Hannan a couple of weeks ago, and he reassured me that the drones were sound relative to the chanter. [I’ve had problems getting my middle drone to behave]
Kevin, have you seen or heard a Rogge set live [and attached to someone who can play?]
Boyd
[Yes, Sean plays a B set by him too, but Sean told me this year that his concert set was absolutely flying]
So… don’t play them with drones. Kevin, what’s the big deal ?
If you landed a high paying gig to record some pipe interludes with a Symphony and the Producer/Director/Engineer started making funny faces at you to ‘get that damn thing in-tune’ or else… explaining to him why it does what it does might not be the right answer.
Would you…
A) pack up your stuff and go home?
B) pack up your stuff and head to Brad’s workshop?
C) try to convince him it’s NOT what pipes are supposed to do?
I know of 2 other equal temperment chanters made specifically on request (and) not by Rogge.
Hmm, I can see the point of this argument, but I can’t agree with it. For one thing, any professional musician is well used to the habits of violinists and singers, who have a habit of swooping off into the land of just intonation. Besides, most classical musicians will allow greater latitude in tuning than most pipers would (precisely because they don’t have a drone in their ears telling them exactly when they’re wrong).
There was a study a few years ago (I think it was written up in the Piping Times or the Piper & Drummer) which suggested that GHB players were by far the most discriminating and consistent tuners, matched only by piano tuners. Other ‘real’ musicians were miles behind (no, I don’t recall of Irish pipers were involved).
And aren’t a lot of piano accordians ‘bent’ to get them a bit closer to a just scale to start with?
Cheers,
Calum
So what, Kevin? I’m pretty sure he only makes them on request. Personally, I do not care for well-tempered pipes. They sound bland. Put the sound of the chanter through an pitch processor and the magic has gone completely. The pipes are flexible enough so that the player can individually control the pitch of the notes to a certain degree if desired.
No need for bashing Andreas here. He might do some things that some “purists” don’t like. I for myself am fond of his inventiveness. Andreas to me is a great blessing, as for without him, there would not be a piping scene in Germany at all. His instruments are superbly crafted. Everything else is a matter of taste, I think.
Christian
I like your Avatar
You look like you’re in a studio?
Boyd
Thanks, Boyd. Nope, it was shot last Saturday on stage in a former haybarn turned into a cozy little venue. Great acoustics, great audience.
By the way, how’s that little bellows going?
It’s lying here patiently awaiting the arrival of a CillianO’B bag and blowpipe. Dunno what I’ll do with it after that…there’s no-one round here who’s keen to learn. There’s no more than 50 uilleann pipers in Scotland, less than half who can play more than a tune or two.
Boyd
Me? I play three tunes now.
One of which is Postman Pat.
Boyd
The other two are The Tempest and Farewell to Eireann in D 
In my original post I was asking if this was true, is Rogge tuning them this way all the time, some of the time, on request, what? I understand why people would want an even tempered chanter - sessions, bands, etc. But it will never work properly as a solo instrument.
I’ve played about 8 different Rogge sets over the years, including Andreas’s own set. Even when I was beginning I thought the drones were a bit drab. Nothing I’ve heard since has changed my feelings about that, it must be those composite reeds he makes. They don’t have the character of cane or elder. Some of the flat chanters I have fond memories of, I’d like to hear them again, and know what to look and listen for. And no, I don’t like his pipes anywhere near as much as Wooff or Angus. All the doohickeys, set screws and the like, are pretty pointless. You can move the rushes around inside and achieve the same result in the same amount of time. But railing against him won’t do any good, like any established pipemaker he is what he is and that’s that, and his fans will go on insisting he’s the best. And I will agree, he is an excellent turner, and general mechanic; and his pipes play very well, too, and there are heaps of others who are full time dreadful in all respects.
And you chose to give me Ril Beara instead!! By the time my wee one’s with the telly, I wonder what tunes I’ll have to play?? Perhaps you can keep me up to speed? 
Alan
I realize we’ve been through this topic before, re tuning on the old doodle sac, but just for old time’s sake…
I’ve been tuning pianos since I was a teenager, have read the books, and know the difference between “just” and “equal” temperament, and would like someone to explain how a chanter can be tuned to “just” temperament. I thought all chanters were “equal.” You only have two octaves (or three on the D note, etc.) which will always be perfect if your reed is good (in any chanter–just or equal). The toneholes up from the bottom D are drilled to obtain the 3rd, 4th, 5th…and so on–just or equal…who can tell? (their octaves are also true if the reed is right). Improper fingering could change things more than the design of a chanter.
I think it was Bach who first came up with the even temperament on his clavichord…“even” meaning a series of tolerable imperfection in the temperament scale that are evenly imperfect against each other (the “wah wah wah” beats you hear) If you could play both the bottom note and the 4th above at the same time, you might be able to tell the difference if your reed and bag pressure was perfectly stable, but there’s not enough difference in one octave to be able to tell.
The idea of inventing the “even” temperament scale was because a piano, tuned to “just” temperament, goes way off at the high and low ends (not the octaves though), and the most important thing is that of playing 3 harmony notes together in one octave. Just temperament only gives you one chord in tune (within one octave). All the other 3-note chords within that octave would sound sour…out of tune.
But when could anyone ever tell the difference between Just and Even on the pipes? You could test a 3rd, 4th, 5th against the drones, or beter yet…one drone, but the nature of a reed (as opposed to a stationary string) is to be unstable because of a number of factors including bag pressure, the reed construction, the weather, the quality of the drone bore, etc. I’m guessing that nothing is stable enough in pipes and reed to be able to tell that the 3rd, 4th, or 5th above bottom D is off a fraction of a percent from perfect (or “just”).
See scale difference at: http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.html
I just (no pun intended) doubt if anyone can tell the difference. Just going from one reed to another can change the tuning of a chanter more than this little minute fraction of a difference within one or two octaves.
Chanters, since they have to (sound best when they) harmonize against a steady drone, they play in just intonation (whole number ratios between notes) in the modes they sound best in.
Equal temperament (equally out of tune in all keys) are only whole note ratios at octaves. The scale is divided into 13 equal half-steps.
A chanter is tuned to just temperament when the pitch of every note is a simple ratio with the key note. That’s what just intonation is.
I’m not sufficiently familiar with Uilleann pipes to say whether or not they really are, but on GHB I can state with some confidence that they are tuned to just intonation, not even temperament, and if you try, it hurts.
The difference between the just and even scales is quite apparent on the third and the fifth; it’s a good fifth of a semitone, IIRC.
The point is that notes of the scale can sound off against the drone. This is certainly true on the GHB; one neophyte turned up to band practice one night with the most awful chanter. He swore blind it was in tune, and yanked out his nice new tuner to show us. Of course, it was bang on the line; it still sounded horrible, though.
I don’t see what octaves have to do with it; the octave is about the only interval recognised in any musical system.
Cheers,
Calum
Geez, Lorenz, your pipes must just totally suck!
Of course drones can play steadily. So you’re playing a note (D) and the note a fourth above it when you play a G on the chanter.
Tune the drones flat and play an F# and you’ll get an earful of what an even tempered chanter would sound like. I’m told. I don’t own one of the things myself. Not a very nice sound. I haven’t measured all this shite with a stroboscope or anything, in fact this is just me passing on what I was told by very knowledgable people who really know what’s going on here.
Certainly fingering will affect things too, but with my pipes I know which fingerings are spot on as well.
Check out Albanian close harmony singing. The more you listen the easier to understand/appreciate/like it, itgets. How do you think so many pipers get so far with badly set up pipes…
Alan
I find your post offensive to Rogge, a fine craftsman and innovator and also to other musicians traditional and otherwise. There is not any excuse for this sort of over-critical, personalized, venom and in fact…eh, neah. What would the rest of you guys do if I started taking that job too?
Royce
Again I’m outraged. To slag off and pit against each other these fine makers as if you were personal pipe maker to the Pope or something! I’m agast at reading this sort of drivel in this respectable, civilized…sorry, sorry, forgot myself again. We’ve already got a guy hired for those sorts of posts. Not sure I could have worked a subscription pitch for NPU into this rebuttal anyway…
Royce
Kevin,
that makes your point clear. That is how I understood your posting first. And you are right, Andreas’ regular drones usually don’t make “boom”, I too believe that this comes from the plastic reeds. I would never say he is “the best” as you always compare apples with oranges and I don’t have played too many sets by different makers. But I own chanters by Andreas and Geoff and I am proud of both (now if I only my playing could do them justice )