Regional styles and representative players

Hi M31,

The difference is that, while there are relatively consistent and very identifiable regional accents in language, the same is not true of flute playing in Ireland. It’s just an idea that has become applied based largely on wishful thinking and highly interpretive perceptions of the situation.

There are little pockets here and there of traceable local influence (and just as many, or more, exceptions to the ‘rules’ in those localities), but that’s more to do with the influence of certain influential players and/or teachers and is nowhere near as consistent as either your language comparison or the ‘regional styles’ theories would have us believe.

Regards,

Harry.

Thanks, Harry. I guess you could call the “regional style” argument the genius loci argument.
It may apply to local accents and dialects in Ireland, largely due to the fact that we all learn to speak, and this can be coupled to a certain residue of conservatism of the Irish who are not yet completely urbanized. But not everyone learns to play music, and mostly not in as an unconscious fashion as we learn to speak. Learning music involves many conscious and artistic decisions.
Just my tuppence worth. Hope I sound like I know what I’m on about. . . :smiley:

Bob

“the genius loci argument”

Indeed, good name for it, be careful or you’ll get quoted on that!

Regards,

H.

So Harry, do you think that flute playing in particular is immune to categorizing in terms of regional styles? Or that the whole regional styles approach in general is misguided? After all, one certainly hears it applied to other instruments - for example Donegal fiddle, Kerry fiddle, Sligo fiddle, etc. Is that also wrong?

Do you think that the situation was different, say, 100 years ago, when there was less mobility and media diffusion, and stronger family ties and regional parochialism? Perhaps regional styles are a valid historical substratum, even though contemporary styles may be more individualized and blurred?

Is the choice of tune repertoire a part of regional style in a broader sense, apart from the technical details of one’s playing style? E.g. Kerry polkas, northern germans, etc.?

Interested in your thoughts …

Hi. Clearly not, but to my mind it’s more a question of whether the categorisation is based on and reflects a coherent stylistic reality ‘on the ground’ (i.e. not just in people’s heads). As far as I can see there’s no strong case for a regional style of flute playing anywhere ‘on the ground’ in Ireland . There are some cases of notable local dynamics, resonances between neighbours if you like, but it would be misleading to present this as some sort of monolithic, enduring ‘regional style’. This is the assumption that it seems is often made around ‘regional styles’ thing tho.

Given the lack of evidence I generally see it as misguided and prone to sweeping assumptions and pigeon holing where the reality is more diverse and interesting.

Well, there is a valid argument for it as a sort of provisional idea, and there are also a lot of people from those places who do not conform to the ideals. But this is not often the way that ‘regional styles’ are conceptualised, more often it’s thought of in sort of simple absolute terms which don’t reflect the realities.

Well, I might like to think that there were strong regional styles 100 years ago, it’s an attractively tidy notion (as is the whole regional styles idea), but you won’t hear O’Niell (or other informed commentators) talking in terms of regional styles in their writings. This may be because he couldn’t notice or quantify them in language (which seems unlikely; he knew a thing or two about musicians from the length and bredth of Ireland) or maybe, just maybe, they hadn’t been invented yet!

I think the reality of tune distribution and preference is more interesting and complicated than idealised values of what constitutes ‘regional style’. For example, the ‘Kerry Polka’ repertory was in no small way affected by marching tunes brought in by British regiments according to research by Hammy Hamilton, and the ‘Donegal fiddle style’ owes as much, or more, to Scotland than to any region of Ireland etc etc etc…

Regards,

Harry.

If I follow you, Harry, there are truly no differences between tune settings, style or ornamentation that can be characterized, generally speaking, as regional… All of us who hear regional styles, give or take exceptions, are mistaken.

Of course, it follows that there are no regional differences, then, between Irish fiddle playing and, say, Bretton, Canadian or Appalachian, since many players now mix and match, exposed, as it were, to the other musical ideas or idioms. That there is no appreciable, discernable difference between Irish band fifing and American. Blues has regional descriptors - Chicago, Delta, Texas, etc., but perhaps that’s just wishful thinking on the part of, well, everybody.

O’Neills, for the record, was compiled in Chicago by an extremely small group of players who played together regularly. The settings there are surely regional.

Or is onlyIrish flute playing that is a musical anomaly, incapable of ever being identified by local taste and style, by regionally preferred rhythms, speed, and general character? I hear differences in playing styles from city to city - even pub to pub - here in the US, based on local tune choices, revered players copied, even what instruments or makers are preferred. Those who learned their craft from, predominantly, CDs, still chose who to listen to and copy styles based on a preference for a kind of style - simple and elegant, highly ornamented and improvisational, honking or buzzy or sweet and haunting. If I flip through my preferred players’ list, I find that they share a great deal in common; many, but not all, fall into a general regional sound or approach. Without having spent a day in Ireland, I did spend uncountable hours playing along with, and learning tunes from, very specific players, most of whom came from a one county in Ireland.

I do believe it become meaningless - nit-picking, really - if we analyse style too much, establish hard and fast rules to regional styles, and cast one player or another in or out based on his/her individual musical choices. But to say that there never are, and never were, regional preferences for style, settings, tune choices and execution is equally meaningless.

BTW - I greatly respect and admire your playing, Harry, and even see your point(s) on this. I get and completely agree with the “on the ground” thing; I doubt anyone seriously and deliberately learns to play with regional in mind. So we could, of course, just not discuss it - agree to disagree - without disparaging comments about internet folks who speak on topics without knowing what they’re talking about.

But then C&F would become a very quiet place.

well Harry, I still like Sam’s “Belfast power diddlers”

Forests, trees, and hypnotic frogs.

Can’t see it myself… or maybe it’s I can’t hear the woods for the wind in the trees…

“But to say that there never are, and never were, regional preferences for style, settings, tune choices and execution is equally meaningless.”

Gordon.

Depends to what you look to for meaning. I think the situation is already full of its own meaning and rationale before we start to think in terms of regional styles. The real dynamics in playing styles, tune distribution etc is/was not confined to convenient geographical areas… why would it be?

I think there were and are indeed regional influences (musical regions/spheres of influence that is, and these extend beyond Ireland! But they are very fluid and provisional, increasingly so it seems) but not handy regional styles in the way that is usually implied. If you see it otherwise then that’s fine with me. :thumbsup:

BTW, I’m happy not to see the wood for the trees if the alternative is not seeing the trees for the wood! :stuck_out_tongue: (… in this case tho it very much seems as if the wood is often not actually made from real trees!)

Regards,

Harry.

I’m never going to see the trees. I live in St. Louis. The trees grow chiefly in Ireland.
I’m relieved to hear there really are no ‘regional styles.’ Another thing I don’t have
to worry about in learning the flute. People immersed in the trees, the details, do
sometimes miss broad outlines. But as to whether there are regional styles
I honestly don’t know, not for deep reasons but sheer ignorance.

Busy learning tunes. Nice to hear that this isn’t yet another thing I don’t know!
Thanks for the music.

Nope - now we’re completely on the same page! :thumbsup:
Best,
Gordon

The fine flute/whistle player Mike McHale, originally from Roscommon, explained that in the days before mass media was popular and accessible his family could tell what town a person was from by hearing them play. As people listened to recordings of good players, some from as far away as America, the distinction between regional and local styles within a region blurred.

Niall Keegan wrote an excellent master thesis on this subject!
Worth looking up!