Real Rudall on eBay

Irish Flute
1

It’s not mine (someone in UK selling it) but there’s a fine-looking Rudall/Rose/Carte flute on eBay.

It’s #6225, very close to my own favorite #6208 (and appears, too, to be identical in every way).

I’d grab it, but I’m stoking funds for a special purchase for someday in the future.

Anyway, thought I’d pass it along to anyone who can put down the initial $3k bid for it (which is pretty fair…if it plays like mine, it’s worth every penny).

And it’s got the cool certificate in the lid (although not one signed personally by Mrss. R&R themselves as the old ones were).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2548907946&category=37977

2

David, I know this is a hard question to answer, but what would you say would be a ballpark figure for fair market value for this flute?

Eddie

3

check your privy msg for a response.
dm

4

Hey, c’mon now, we all want to know! :smiley:

5

Well, I know how much it went for:

$4650.00!!!

I was sooooo lucky, I got there right after the auction had ended. Funny thing though. The auction was not supposed to end until 8:22 and my clocks all said 8:15. Wierd.

6

Try syncing your clock time with ebay’s time, it makes things easier.

My cut off was $4500, just couldn’t bring myself to put up anymore. Luckily I know the fellow who bought it, hopefully I’ll get a chance to play it once he’s fixed it up a bit.

Eddie

7

If it’s anything like mine, which it appears to be, that’s a very VERY fair price.

8

$4650.00 for a fixer-upper, sheesh… Different stokes I guess.

Loren

9

Well, probably just cleaning and re-whatever-ing the joints. Maybe a pad or two.

It doesn’t look like it needs all that much.

Stuart

10

There’s a crack a long the back, but that’s shouldn’t be too difficult to fix. A little bit of blackwood dust and superglue would fix it right up.

Maybe I convince him to sell me his other Rudall, surely he doens’t need two. :slight_smile:

(whoops just checked and it’s cocuswood, don’t want to use blackwood then.)

Eddie

11

I disagree with Migoya. I think $4,650 is nuts. You can buy a better flute for less from a modern maker. Maybe better isn’t the point. But if it’s the music that we’re all about, rather than the equipment, then that much money doesn’t make a lot of sense.
You could buy a better flute for less and with money left over go to Ireland for a few weeks, or attend a workshop with a great player. By better flute, I mean: A=440 as a benchmark for tuning, the flute in tune with itself at A=440, no problems with A,E, and D at A=440, better condition, more volume. Don’t get me wrong. I have a couple of "Rudalls, " including one from the same period as the one on Ebay, and it’s is a great flute. I love playing them despite, or sometimes because of, their ideosyncrasies. But flutes that I have played that are made by modern makers, for traditional Irish music, are wonderful.
As a player I’ll stick with flutes made by my contemporaries for the kind of music we all play. The collector-of-old-flutes appeal of Rudalls is what drives up the price. Not playability as regards Irish music. Sort of like baseball cards.
Now we can have fun arguing about this instead of playing. But that’s why Matt Malloy, who could afford any flute he wants, plays a modern flute and not an antique. Ditto Paul NcGratten, Harry Bradley, Jean-Michel Veillon, Seamus Egan, etc. etc.

12

I think it depends on what you want. I agree that you can get a better flute from a living maker (other people will want to kill me for thinking this, but i’m convinced that the state of the art now is better than what it was at Rudall’s time).

On the other hand, if someone has $5K to spend to rescue this gorgeous instrument and make sure it gets played and cared for, what’s wrong with that? Better than ending up in some dusty museum shelf.

13

It isn’t that it’s wrong to spend $5,000 on a flute if somebody wants it. The point is that the value of the flute does not have to do with it’s playability for traditional music. These flutes were made to play classical romantic music. Imagine an orchestra with wooden flutes (powerful, bright Rudalls) playing Beethoven, Brahms, late Mozart, Mendellson, at A=454. It must have been spectacular. Rich, reedy, complex overtones. The flute solo in Beethoven’s 6th. Symphony would be gorgeous played on a late Rudall Carte.
There are some very fine players using old flutes (Catherine McEvoy and Jimmy Noonan come to mind). But most outstanding players of traditional music play flutes made by modern makers. When David Migoya says the flute on Ebay was worth nearly $5,000 he is speaking of its value in a collectors’ market rather than the value it would have for a player of traditional Irish music… which is what most of us play.

14

Yeah, I think there’s a lot of emotional or romantic value to the old flutes. Some don’t play badly, either; I have Dave Migoya’s previous R&R (much older), which I love to play, especially with a new headjoint.

Here’s an interesting insight into my psyche, though. You know what my first thought was on seeing the eBay pics of this flute? “Man, the look of the keywork really went downhill. That thing looks downright mass-produced.” Am I some kind of apostate, or what? This later period of Rudallism is an interesting conundrum . . . the flutes are probably much easier to play in tune at A=440Hz than an older one would be, but the flutes do have a different aesthetic . . . one that’s not as “romantic” in my opinion as that of the older flutes. Heck, as Dave pointed out to me, the keywork on this flute has Rose’s initials on it, and was therefore probably made by him personally. I like the flute a great deal . . . it’s cool, it’s fun to have a Rudall, and I like it.

I guess what I’m saying is that I hope the later ones are great players, because they’re kind of ugly. :wink:

So, here I go. I have two D flutes: an Olwell, and this Rudall. I like them both. But for very different reasons.

Stuart

15

…and a Grinter, and a Byrne :roll: ahh, the life of the priveleged…lol


Regards,

  • Ryan
16

Hey! Come on! I didn’t even bring them up.

And anyway, they’re not in D.

:wink:

Stuart

17

Hello.
Sturob may be ,forgetting that Rudall Rose ,& Carte , like Rudall & Rose ,made flutes in different grades at widely differing prices .The keywork and prettyness varied accordingly.Perhaps it would be better if people when buying in the antique (art ? ) market remember to make the distinction .A R,R,&C flute of mine is particularly pretty .
Perhaps Mr Migoya can tell us if Rose ever made keys.
I imaging that one of the main reasons that people (like me) who collect old flutes is that the two or perhaps three modern makers who do fine work have such lengthy waiting lists .

18

I hope that Beowulf doesn’t have to experience an Ebay auction ending early to learn how annoying it is .It happened to me once. Luckily the (naughty)bidder didn’t pay and I got the flute anyway, -A freak .If it happened in the case of the Rudall Rose &Carte we must just guess what it might have made if the normal bidding had run it’s course .
Wouldn’t it be nice if people didn’t keep calling copies Rudalls ?
Perhaps I should use your forum if I decide to sell the odd Rudall in the future.No premature happenings then!

19

He (Dave) probably can. Dave is the one who pointed out to me the initials on the keywork.

Your point is well-taken, though, about the lines of “trim” on the Rudalls. I didn’t mean for that to be insulting; I do think the “look” changed a little over the years, overall, and I happen to like the older ones. Eh, it’s just like cars. :wink:

Stuart

20

Okay
Point of clarity here.
I’ve never said, nor indicated, that John Mitchell Rose ever made keys.
What I DID say, was the keys on one flute (of which I’ve yet to see the photos, but was told they had the mark on the underside of the shank) were stamped “RR” or “R&R” (don’t recall which).

I found that very unusual as none of the Rudalls I’d ever seen or researched had this marking. While many other flutemakers’ key work had some mark on them to indicate who made them (our illustrious A.L. is one), RR never seemed to have the mark.

So…my deduction, although based solely on conjecture, was that the keys were made in the shop. By whom? Who knows. But why else stamp the keys?
So…that’s the accurate account of that. It’s a puzzle still w/o real answer.

Regarding David Levine’s post about the “value” of the flutes…it’s an opinion. I won’t disregard it, or discount it at all. David’s a fine collector himself, with several Rudalls as well as modern-made flutes, Olwell among his favorites.

(By the way…as far as I know, Molloy does play an Olwell occassionally…but mostly still plays his favorite and favored Boosey-Hawkes Pratten…and his Bb flute was a Hawkes in the Siccama-key style)

Do the old flutes play better than or as well as the new ones? Many of them yes. All of them? No. That’s because there was no standard of pitch as there is today.
But why, then, are all the makers of today advertising, measuring, copying, replicating, etc., the flutes of yesterday? Why do they sell a “Rudall & Rose” model, or a “Pratten model?”
There’s a Nicholson style, a Clementi copy, etc etc.
There surely must be some redemptive value otherwise today’s makers would be copying each other’s work instead!

As I’ve mentioned to others, value is relative not just to the instrument as a playable object, but its collectibility. Want an Olwell? Order one.
Want a genuine Rudall? Find one.

Want one that plays in today’s standard, and does it well? Look harder.
But they DO exist.

Over 50 years, R&R made about 7200 of their simple-system flutes of 8 (or so) keys. That’s 144 on average a year. About a third are now in museums (of those still in existence which, by long guess is roughly 1500-2000). Patrick’s a young guy. He’s got many years left to make great flutes.

Did the key work and body designs change at RR? Of course they did. Different people were making the instruments over time. In fact, when Wylde left the shop but continued to deliver flutes on contract, the foot key work along went back to the overlap rather than crescent. Too, German Silver came into vogue because of expense.

The short-F key touches alone have about 5 different designs. The cups went through about as many morphs. Rings? Too many to describe here.
Anyway…I hope that clarifies a couple things and obfuscates even more. That’s the beauty of working on and researching these flutes. It’s history, which is always an intrigue…and a mystery.