Fascinating thing, this. I grew up playing classical fiddle and trad, in parallel, as it were. Started trad fiddle pretty much at the same time as I started classical violin lessons. I’ve always believed that the two were not really linked - that one didn’t really help the other. Over the years, some people have disagreed with me. No-one has particularly agreed with me. Well, no-one that I’ve met in meatspace, at any rate.
Well, for the last year, I’ve been learning flute. I’m learning trad stuff, and also just about to take my Grade 3 Associated Board exam. (I’m going to be taking this on my 19c Rudall PH, btw. Should be fun. ) I’m progressing on both, but, because I’m coming up to my exam, I’m tending just for the moment to concentrate more on the classical stuff. And, to my slight surprise, even given my above-stated belief, if I haven’t practised trad for a while, I find that it won’t have progressed at all. Not one jot. Even on things like tone. I actually don’t understand why that is - my tone is improving no end in general, but it’s like I have to work on improving classical tone, facility etc … and, separately, improving trad tone, facility etc. Weird. All I can think is that I am, consciously or not, playing with a different embouchure depending on which idiom I happen to be playing, and that these two things just don’t overlap.
Things is, though, I’m talking everything - tone, finger facility, intonation … The lot. It’s like they’re in two separate boxes, and I have to fill them each up individually if I want to get anything much out of one or other of them.
I suppose you have to take technical stuff separate from idiom. The trad idioms don’t help my classical playing
or visa versa much, but I think tone and general dexterity improvements carry across. Mind you I use cuts and taps
in classical and a sweet tone in trad if I choose and don’t care a fig for the style police of either.
So why don’t “tone and general dexterity improvements” carry across for me? Or do I just live with it and accept the fact that I haven’t taken up just one additional instrument (at my advanced years) but two?
Ooh, and something else weird: I’m hardly playing whistle at all these days. Yet, when I do, I find that the work I’ve been doing on flute has dramatically improved my whistle playing - especially, funnily enough, as regards tone.
That’ll be better breath support & sensitivity thereto. Flute is harder in that aspect, so those benefits on whistle make sense. Otherwise & more generally, I’m with treeshark.
One reason I am following this is that I have been contemplating the lower cost shiny route to chromaticity and the availability of teacher only ten minutes up the road. I could accept that splitting the time would slow down progress on the wooden flute and trad, and the boehm would be for ‘general purpose’ use rather than specifically for classical.
But I was hoping for some crossover. Maybe I am starting from such a low base that there would be and it takes decades of divided focus for them to become two specialities. Is there anything in between? Something baroque maybe.
Funny you should mention that about Baroque stuff, David. I’ve just been on the dog to Mr “theflute” and I was saying that, irrespective of the instrument I’m playing (ie whether it’s fiddle or flute or, back in the day, mandolin, guitar) there is one composer, playing whose music virtually guarantees that I will play anything else, in whatever idiom, better. That composer is Bach. Anybody else - for me, at any rate - forget it.
The embouchure holes are different. Modern Boehm and most wooden flutes have different sizes, different chimney heights and quite possibly different undercutting.For myself, I find working on a smaller embouchure,(i.e. one of Doug Tipple’s flutes) and then switching to an early R&R style slightly larger embouchure gives me improved tones. My Dixon has an even larger embouchure hole and also benefits by improved ‘focus’. I haven’t picked up ‘the shiny monster’ for ages so I can’t say. As to finger movement, the ‘mechanical marvel’ is completely different from a 'trad flute so no crossover there should be no surprise.
I’ve been playing a Boehm for the last few months, and I agree with you more or less.
As Bob notes, there’s really no crossover on the fingerings, and I find this actually helps. I tried learning the classical fingerings on a french keyed flute, but found that my trad techniques kept leaching in - I kept cutting instead of tonguing. I could just about remember to use the Eb touch, but using the F for F# and so on, just too much to relearn. Once I switched to the Boehm, it was like a totally different instrument, so no confusion.
As for tone, I don’t know. Having played trad flute for a few years I jumped over the beginner stuff, but since I’m teaching myself I have no idea how a proper classical teacher would react to my sound. Horror probably. I do use a different sort of tone than for trad, but my vibrato is nowhere.
If that was to me thanks. Sorry for mentioning the shiny option, I wasn’t meaning to lead Ben’s discussion off route. Since Ben is using the same flute for both I understood it to be something about the music rather than the instrument.
I asked about the tonguing higher up because I was wondering if it was a case of the things that needed development for one were the things not used in the other. I tongue on whistle more than most but not at all on flute when playing ITM. I decide to play a non trad english song tune that has a whole string of repeating notes that work well with words but sound silly with finger or breath articulation. So I find myself learning to tongue. Will this be any use for trad I wonder ? I listen to trad recordings and find that the tonguing tends to be quite hard to give an emphasis or things like triple tonguing, whearas what I have been working on is subtle, more what I hear classical players do most of the time. So no crossover to ITM.
Vibrato - yuch. I’m not having lessons if I have to do that.
Nothing wrong I feel with using the tongue, since many of the best Irish players use it why the hell shouldn’t I?
I do think the touch has to be more delicate on the flute the merest flicker which I have found hard.
The difference with Trad and classical very generally is where the tongue/accent etc is placed, in classical
mostly at the beginning of a group of notes, with trad often at the end. But if you learn by ear that will come
of itself.
Well, for me, I’m not really learning by ear. Well, I suppose I am where it’s a new tune for me, but most of the trad stuff I’m playing on flute is tunes I know in any case, so I’m not having to learn the tunes, at least.
Classical stuff, I am, of course, reading from the dots, but that in itself doesn’t make any difference to me.
And David is quite correct - I’m using the same flute for both. I’m not even trying to get a different tone, but somehow it is completely different between how the tone is for classical stuff and how it is for trad.
One thing’s for sure - I absolutely love this instrument. I just need to find ways to get over all the little (and not so little) frustrations attendant on learning the ?%&* thing!
I’ve known several people who had studied classical flute a good deal, then switched
entirely to Irish flute. It seemed that they were much helped by their classical
experience on several fronts, including the way they held the flute, their dexterity
with difficult passages, their tone. And they themselves said the classical training had transferred nicely
and was a big help.
Oh … kay … I have to say, I remain to be convinced about that. Perhaps it’s because, so far, the only musicians I’ve known who have ‘switched’ from classical to trad have been fiddlers. And they, without exception, have been diabolical. (Note that I’m still excluding people - like me, in fact - who have grown up doing both. There are some very fine examples amongst the top echelons of trad who have done that.)
) I’m progressing on both, but, because I’m coming up to my exam, I’m tending just for the moment to concentrate more on the classical stuff. And, to my slight surprise, even given my above-stated belief, if I haven’t practised trad for a while, I find that it won’t have progressed at all. Not one jot. Even on things like tone. I actually don’t understand why that is - my tone is improving no end in general, but it’s like I have to work on improving classical tone, facility etc … and, separately, improving trad tone, facility etc. Weird. All I can think is that I am, consciously or not, playing with a different embouchure depending on which idiom I happen to be playing, and that these two things just don’t overlap.
Or do I just live with it and accept the fact that I haven’t taken up just one additional instrument (at my advanced years) but two?
and the availability of teacher only ten minutes up the road. I could accept that splitting the time would slow down progress on the wooden flute and trad, and the boehm would be for ‘general purpose’ use rather than specifically for classical.
- who have grown up doing both. There are some very fine examples amongst the top echelons of trad who have done that.)