Petition to Bring AndrewK Back

Poststructural Pub
21

I think the problem is that a lot of people are under the totally false impression that they actually KNOW anyone through interaction on this or any other internet forum. You don’t. The 'net, in my opinion, is a very sorry excuse for personal interaction.

C&F has a long history of celebrating the victim, and the victim’s right not to be victimized. I’ve had horrible personal interactions (outside of C&F) with folks continually permitted to post, and actually, to whose defense various board members regularly jump. I’ve had limited (but very real) interactions with Andrew outside C&F and I find him to be opinionated, yes, but very knowledgeable on a variety of subjects, and he’s also someone whose chest is not filled with coal, believe it or not.

Andrew’s posts can be very biting, very concise, and very British. It’s not his fault that the persons he “attacks” either choose not to retaliate (other than to ask that he be banned) or are unable to do so.

I can’t recall a post of Andrew’s whose attack, to stay with the victimization theme, was directed at any other person’s worth or personhood. Usually his digs have to do with flutes, knowledge about flutes, and politics. It’s a lot easier to silence an opinion rather than deal with it.

We are offended solely by that which we choose to find offensive. Very little is intrinsically offensive, in my opinion, and really little (if anything) I’ve ever seen on C&F has been truly offensive. Or hurtful.

Take David Levine. I like the guy. He and I have exchanged many an email. I don’t like his politics. I tangle with him occasionally, but hey, that’s life. Life is conflict, within and without.

I also respect Dale, and his right to exercise whatever censorship/banishment he deems necessary to foster whatever utopia he chooses with the C&F fora. I have supported C&F with both rhetoric and wherewithal, and will continue to do so.

Stuart, donning a flameproof jacket. Oh, pants too.

22

Andrew gone??? :astonished:

Okay, well, I had worked hard away from the board to temper myself and not duke it out with Andrew. I was successful and he and I managed to become “friends” again, even off the board.

I know I can continue to email with him off list, but I have to say, there were indeed times he made me laugh out loud with some of his one-liner jabs, even some directed at me! He’ll be missed.

I hope Andrew does the same, cooling off and seeing the board for the place it is: to exchange ideas and, if we care, to help someone else along with our knowledge.

He’ll feel so much better, too. I know I did after a 4-month layoff. Mine was self-imposed. I imagine he’ll be back.

23

:slight_smile:

24

Well said Stuart.

Eric

25

Casey Burns, that was one of the interactions I was refering to in my post. I could make no sense whatsoever of what was going on there, it was completely irrational.

I can feel sorry for that person, but I think a lot of people who have something to contribute do not want to have a wretched experience every time they say something. Those people will just not speak anymore rather than get into an irrational battle with someone.

I am not talking about a discussion in which one is challenged in a civil way. Certainly if one makes an assertion, one has to give the evidence, etc. And people are going to disagree. But this seems very different than weird attacks coming out of the blue.

26

I for one will not miss his vitriol

27

I was feeling a bit ornery after a few beers, no harm meant.

Please accept my apology.

Tex

28

I left the forum many months ago, for many reasons, mostly personal, but Andrew was one of my last straws. I occasionally checked in to see what’s up, without logging in, and was surprised to find this thread. Nice to see him gone.
Probably won’t be back much, anyway, but, while I’m here:
Hi, guys,
Gordon

29

Hi, Gordon, Jeez I’ve missed you. Jim

30

I read the thread that prompted the banning of andrew. I find nothing in the thread itself that would cause the banning of andrew. There was no use of foul or inappropriate language, rather stating of opinions, maybe with a touch of sarcasm which i don’t think warrants expulsion.

Most would, i hope, agree with me that Andrew always speaks from the heart and with conviction which, i personally, find increasingly lacking in modern society where people are afraid to speak their minds.

Note that there has been a cultural trend in recent years to silence any type of thought or language which might possibly be viewed as offensive by anybody. Not to turn this into a polical thread, but a society’s freedom and soul is based on free discussions and exchange of viewpoints and that includes the acceptance of different cultural mindsets.

Andrew is his own man and in my mind a man of character and strong convictions. That doesn’t mean everybody has to agree with him, in fact if you don’t agree with him state your opinion. If you don’t care to express your opinion then that’s your business and if you don’t want to read his posts that’s your business too.

Bottomline, based on what i read andrew was not banned because of the specific comments in the thread but rather because of other factors not evident from the posts in the thread. And if it were other factors not public to the thread why should he be banned from the thread as he did not apparently infringe on the public rules of the thread?

Dale maybe you can comment?
I’d love to hear Andrew’s take on it, but of course he has been silenced…

Sven

31

A shout-out to my homeboy Gordon: word.

And still, I challenge you to find personal attacks from Andrew other than, “If you think X, you should probably educate yourself.” Sure, he gets under the skin.

Oh, well!

Stuart

32

Well, there was the post in which he accused someone of using his prisoner ID number as a moniker.

33

My problem here is that I don’t really think it’s right to give chapter & verse about what happened on this forum when Andrew can’t defend himself here…and I’m not about to invite him back to defend himself. As I’ve said, I’m not reconsidering. But, you’d be wrong to think he was banned only because of his posts on one thread.

Note that there has been a cultural trend in recent years to silence any type of thought or language which might possibly be viewed as offensive by anybody. Not to turn this into a polical thread, but a society’s freedom and soul is based on free discussions and exchange of viewpoints and that includes the acceptance of different cultural mindsets.

Well, I’m not sure this happened because of my desire to conform to cultural trends. This free speech vs. please show good manners to your host’s guests (and your host) when you are asked to has been rehashed here a zillion times and I say again I won’t compromise on my insistence that people show decent manners.

Andrew is his own man and in my mind a man of character and strong convictions.

I don’t doubt that.

Andrew was banned in November 2004 and I let him back in, in spite of my better judgment. I banned him again for reasons that ought to be apparent, if not agreed with, from this post. My reasons for not reconsidering are based on the reasons for the original decision, the 2nd banning, and email that he has sent me since.

Thanks very much to all of you for your opinions and feel free to post more. But, again, I’m not reconsidering. If someone would like for me to, I’d be happy to send Andrew detailed suggestions about starting his own forum.

Dale

34

because of recent happenings off list with andrewK I do vote AGAINST his return.
people who do think they have the right to just say whatever crosses their mind and offend listmembers with no need at all, do NOT belong on this list, no matter how much knowledgeable they seem to be regarding flutes.
now, andrew is gone and hopefully the list will be a nice place again for all of us to enjoy…

berti

35

I’m not going to put any rational arguments, only that I have enjoyed Andrews posts which have often informed me and many times made me laugh outloud.
Rob

36

Hi all,
I to have always enjoyed the drama and fun of his posts. I never took the jabs seriosly. I tend to look for the good in the person. I have had many helpful private emails from him, and he has been very supportive.
I realize that he has a uncontrolable urge to attack or in his words tease the uninformed or in his eyes, the self proclaimed expert. This is something that he needs to work on.
That is one of the problems with internet related comunication, the lack of understanding the intent of the individual that is posting, (unless one results to those smile faces) one is often miss-interpeted. Not to say, that he didn’t unintentionly piss anyone off, but I don’t think he is mean-spirited in nature, antagonistic yes, but not mean spirited.
Jon
in honor of Andrew: :smiley: :slight_smile: :frowning: :astonished: :confused: :sunglasses: :laughing: :stuck_out_tongue: :blush: :cry: :imp: :roll: :wink: :sniffle: :moreevil: :smiling_imp: :party: :devil: :boggle: :tantrum: :adminok:

37

IMO Andrew was:
Knoweldgeable- he could quote Langwells index better than anyone else alive today. Not so hot on technical terms, often useing them incorrectly or in the wrong context.
Funny- ocasionaly yes. More often obsesive, bitter,prejudiced or pedantic.
Very British- no , very Andrew.
I must confess that I did enjoy watching the carnage caused by his antics but it could get tiresome. Remember the time before the offensive/political thread? Every thread seemed to get hijacked by Andrew and used to inform us about his political opinions.
I think he was given plenty of chances.

38

Wow ! missed a few days, and look at this!
I like Andrew as a person, he is very passionate , and caring, yes, he has a cynical way of saying things, but he comes from a place of trying to help.
censorship has alway been very insulting to me, I think of myself as strong enough to take and deal with things that are said.
For this forum, When David left, I felt was a great loss and I’m happy David is back.
I come here to learn from others experience and to ask questions, it’s nice to get to know a few a bit deeper, but in general, this is not my social outlet, I use it as one of many learning tools, and Andrew has a lot to give, and he has.
Dale, you saying that you are not going to reconsider no matter whats being said is very insulting and belittling, I would feel much better if you listen and consider what people have to say, even if you come to the same conclusion at the end.
eilam.

39

A lot of people don’t take kindly to the personal insults though Eilam. We have have a right to an opinion- that much is true. This does not mean we have a right to belittle others because they do not share our views. This forum provides a place for like minded individuals to get together and learn about the thing that really toots their fruit and that is flute playing, not politics, or who’s best at flinging insults. Here we should be decent and kind to each other as we all strive for the same thing - to be better players/makers - whatever. Here on this forum is a space for flautists first and everything else second. Yes politics and nationalist attitudes affect us all to some degree but we are not here to discuss those. speak your mind by all means but don’t injure others by doing so - there are other forums for that

40

Neither insulting nor belittling, IMO. The moderators moderate–it’s their job to draw lines as to when behaviour is too uncivil to tolerate.
They can’t please everybody.
Doing the job is neither insulting nor belittling, nor is refusing
to reconsider because some would draw the lines differently–
especially when a good number of people are posting their considerable
relief. People have a right to disagree, certainly, but no right to the moderator’s thinking it over again
because they do. In addition Dale mentioned e mail he
has received from A since the second banning as part of
his reason for not reconsidering. Nuff said.

I hoped that I could find a way to bring Andrew back,
but I think now it’s impossible. Andrew is a good friend
of mine, and the interesting thing is that most everything
everybody has said about him rings true–both the good
and the bad. I see far more good than bad, personally,
but there are people who probably aren’t going to
be able to function in this venue. If it were just the few
of us who know how to field him and know when
to not take him seriously, it would be alright, but
it’s everybody, there is a cultural divide operating
and other problems, and probably it isnt’ practicable.
I feel sad about this whole thing, but the moderators
did their job.