OT: For those who are opposed to hunting.

Well, we’ve now heard the prey Willy offed was called a dikdik.
How coincidental - that’s one of my pet names for Willy, the rest of the Brit Royals and their lackeys. :smiley:
Also, someone noted ..“(mule deer grunt and use scent limited body language to express displeasure, alarm, and sexual desire, but that’s about it)”. Another wonderful coincidence as this could easily apply to moi and many of my friends, but that’s to be expected as I’m one of the peasant classes.

…he doffs his hat respectfully and disappears off stage …

I play the whistle (and stating that makes MY posting much more relevant
to this message board than most of yours). :smiley:

Hibs for the cup,

Cheers.

A bit of PETA confusion from a cloth-bound, silkscreened, wearable message recently viewed:

People
Eating
Tasty
Animals

You may fire when ready, Gridley

dave boling

Here’s PETA on hunting.

Without hunting, deer and other animals would overpopulate and die of starvation."
Starvation and disease are unfortunate, but they are nature’s way of ensuring that the strong survive. Natural predators help keep prey species strong by killing only the sick and weak. Hunters, however, kill any animal they come across or any animal whose head they think would look good mounted above the fireplace—often the large, healthy animals needed to keep the population strong. And hunting creates the ideal conditions for overpopulation. After hunting season, the abrupt drop in population leads to less competition among survivors, resulting in a higher birth rate.

If we were really concerned about keeping animals from starving, we would not hunt but instead take steps to reduce the animals’ fertility. We would also preserve wolves, mountain lions, coyotes, and other natural predators. Ironically, many deer herds and duck populations are purposely manipulated to produce more and more animals for hunters to kill.

“Hunting fees are a major source of revenue for wildlife management and habitat restoration.”
The relatively small fee each hunter pays does not cover the cost of hunting programs or game warden salaries. Hunting fees pay for hunter programs that benefit only hunters, like manipulating animal populations to increase the number of animals available to kill. The public lands that many hunters use are supported by taxpayers, and funds benefiting “nongame” species are scarce.

“Isn’t hunting okay as long as I eat what I kill?”
Did the fact that Jeffrey Dahmer ate his victims justify his crimes? What is done with a corpse after its murder doesn’t lessen the victim’s suffering.

Furthermore, hunters are harming animals other than the ones they kill and take home. Those who don’t die outright often suffer disabling injuries. Additionally, the stress that hunting inflicts on animals—the noise, the fear, and the constant chase—severely restricts their ability to eat adequately and store the fat and energy they need to survive the winter.

Hunting also disrupts migration and hibernation. For animals like wolves, who mate for life and have close-knit families, hunting can severely harm entire communities.

“What about people who have to hunt to survive?”
We have no quarrel with subsistence hunters and fishers who truly have no choice in order to survive. However, in this day and age, meat, fur, and leather are not a necessary part of survival for the vast majority of us.

Unfortunately, many “sport” hunters have borrowed from aboriginal tradition and manipulated it into a justification for killing animals for recreation or profit.

Here;s PETA on the Biblical argument:

“God put animals here for us to use; the Bible gives us dominion over animals.”
Dominion is not the same as tyranny. The Queen of England has “dominion” over her subjects, but that doesn’t mean she can eat them, wear them, or experiment on them. If we have dominion over animals, surely it is to protect them, not to use them for our own ends. There is nothing in the Bible that would justify our modern-day policies and programs that desecrate the environment, destroy entire species of wildlife, and inflict torment and death on billions of animals every year. The Bible imparts a reverence for life; a loving God could not help but be appalled at the way animals are being treated.


If I may add something, PETA is tying animal rights
to the capacity for suffering. As Bentham said,
‘The queston isn’t Can it reason, Can it speak, or
Can it read, but Can it suffer?’ Nothing in this entails
that we can’t defend ourselves against animals,
doubly so when the creature has a very doubtful
capacity for suffering, e.g. mosquitoes. Best

I think under our protection is also an appropriate interpretation of it. What that would mean is very subject to interpretation. The Old Testament contains rules about the treatment of animals. Animals killed in accordance with kosher laws are killed in a much less painful manner, from what I’ve been told. However, the very fact that the Bible prescribes a manner in which to kill livestock one intends to eat suggests that it may be alright if one chooses to eat meat.

I, personally, see eating meat as in harmony with nature and therefore, have little issue with others doing it. If a lion killed a “deer-like animal” and ate it, would we think it incredibly immoral of the lion? I think our main obligation is to strive to be in harmony with nature. That is one of the reasons I think trophy hunting is wrong. As a child I was told, “You kill it, you eat it.” That is the natural order, and though we may grow to find it rather repulsive, it is still the way things are. As a child, I could watch the lions kill and gobble up the zebra on a nature show and not be at all horrified. However, adults expressed their discomfort at watching such things in my presence, and over time, I grew to share it. I think my attitude as a child was much healthier than the attitude society taught me.

Who is to say that people aren’t a perfectly natural predator?

I was a vegetarian for 23 years. Although I had to abandon vegetarianism for health reasons about nine years ago, I continue to be sympathetic to the idea.

However, I don’t believe it’s appropriate to criticize people for eating meat. Humans have been meat eaters for hundreds of thousands of years. I agree with Lilymaid that it is in accordance with nature for us to do so. I also am convinced that hunting is instinctive for humans. Rabbits don’t hunt, but hunting has always been part of every human culture.

I do, very definitely, feel it’s appropriate to criticize the way animals raised commercially for meat are treated.

Recently, I learned that a man who works for me raises pigs for their meat. (Last year’s three pigs, incidentally were named, “Breakfast,” “Lunch” and “Dinner.”) Anyway, I’ve contracted with him for half a pig.

I much prefer this scenario than the commercial route. I know these pigs. I’ve been to see them, and I can see they have a good life. And, especially, I know they won’t suffer. Mark has found a butcher who takes the pigs to his farm and lets them get comfortable and used to their surroundings before slaughtering them. He says you get a better product if you don’t “stress the meat” by subjecting the pigs to fear and pain. I’m less concerned about the quality of the product than the pigs’ wellfare. Except for the fact that it’s pork, this seems more in accordance with the Biblical instructions about how animals should be treated.

As for hunting; around here, if someone has a deer head on his wall, you can be sure he and his family ate the deer. This is rural, economically depressed, upstate New York. Just about everyone hunts, and there are plenty of deer to go around.

We have venison in our freezer all the time, given to us by my wife’s patients. It’s a much healthier form of meat than the artifically fattened beef from the grocery. Range-fed beef, incidentally, has a completely different, much healthier fatty acid profile than conventionally raised and fattened beef.

I believe in reincarnation. I believe that, ultimately, it’s impossible to kill or be killed, even if the body is slain. I also believe that to inflict suffering is a grave sin. Because of my belief, I may have an easier time with the ethical questions concerning killing for food than someone who believes a soul only lives one lifetime and that’s all. However, I take care to catch bees and wasps that get in the house and release them without harm. And you all know, I refuse to kill a mouse.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Hairless monkeys indeed!!!
I have lots of hair except on my head.
And I lost my prehensile tale awhile back in a tree swinging accident. Plust I don’t eat my lice. I let the kids have them.

Couple of things Jim. We go barking over here every time we hear “Queen of England” - that’s a bit like saying “George W Bush, President of Texas”. Hopelessly picky and pedantic I know, but it’s “Queen of the UK” (wherein England is a part of the UK).

The other point is the biblical quote “…dominion over the animals”. This has caused more stress over the centuries to the animal life on this planet as christians have used it for countless occasions to justify hunting. The fact is, the bible was written in Hebrew and the original Hebrew word has no English equivalent - the best way to describe the feeling-meaning of the word is to say “lordship-custodianship-care [over the animals]” which has a very different meaning, and certainly does NOT condone hunting for pleasure.

Out west, the deer and elk populations are infested with Chronic Wasting Disease.

The Department of Natural Resources are destroying 10’s of thousands of them. Wherever the disease is identified and confirmed, the Department converges and inilates the population. This disease has spread to Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, Idaho… and isolated instances have been found as far North as Michigan.

They obatin so many carcasses from these regional clensings that the animals are piles in huge pits and incinerated… burned, by the hundreds, they show this on the news. A huge mountain of wild animals, deer and elk, in a bond fire.

There is no indication that this disease, this Chronic Wasting Syndrome is coming under control, just the opposite. The more they test, the more they find! There are preliminary indications that this disease may have spread to the human population in the form of barin spongiforms… Similar, but not identical to Britian’s Mad Cow Disease. Several studies have been published that imply that in the worst case scenario, eventually, all wild deer and elk may need to be destroyed in entire multi-state areas and be replaced with healthy animals.

This is not without precident. Also out west, we have suffered Whirling Disease in out trout populations in the natural streams. 10’s of millions of trout, both wild and in hatcheries have also been destroyed… 10’s of millions over the last decade. Were you aware of that? The disease s just now coming under control. Just in time for the Wildlife Managers to now stary worrying about Chronic Wasting Disease…

Why am I posting this. I am not supoporting or detracting from hunting. I know both sides of the arguement intimately from many years involvement in the western conservation movement.

What I am thinking is that PITA has a case of misplaced priorities in their concern for wildlife. Wouldn’t you think they could focus their efforts on fundraising research for the control and eradication of Chronic Wasting and Whirling?

The effort should be equivalent to AIDS or Cancer, in the wild kingdom.

Instead, they organize disruptions to public hunting areas. For them, I have no respect.

The world is full of irony.

Deer, which we tend to think of as possessing good mothering skills and some sort of caring relationship with other deer, are actually quite ruthless toward each other. Rather than share food, a strong deer will starve a weak one every time.

Wolves, on the other hand, are a quite different story. They have excellent mothering skills, they hunt and share food as a pack, they pick primarily the old and sick from their prey to bring down for food, they care for each other, and they all grieve when a pack member dies.

Our place in nature is that of a predator: closer to the wolf’s role than the deer–however, we often act more like the deer. While it’s true that mankind’s relationship to the natural world–at least that of Western civilization–hasn’t been one to be very proud of, a far worse problem is man’s inhumanity toward his own kind.

–James

Excellent comment, James.

Best wishes,
Jerry

It’s easy to try to make animal
rights people the issue–their priorities are
skewed, etc. This may or may not be true, but
at the end of the day it’s worth returning to
the subject of our responsibilities
to animals.

The argument these folks are giving, which
surely comes from the philosopher Peter Singer,
goes something like this:

  1. Animals have rights and interests that deserve
    respect. Animal rights means that animals deserve certain kinds of consideration—consideration of what is in their own best interests regardless of whether they are cute, useful to humans, or an endangered species and regardless of whether any human cares about them at all (just as a mentally-challenged human has rights even if he or she is not cute or useful or even if everyone dislikes him or her). It means recognizing that animals are not ours to use—for food, clothing, entertainment, or experimentation.

  2. There may be desperate circumstances where human
    needs entitle us to exploit animals (e.g. nothing else
    to eat, etc.); otherwise their rights
    ought to be respected. Generally we are not in those
    circumstances.

Therefore

  1. For most of us, our treatment of animals is seriously
    unjust (in something like the way that slavery
    was unjust).

The Biblical response is weak, in my opinion, for several
reason. First, obviously, it won’t persuade the non-religious.
second, the ‘dominion’ statement doesn’t warrant exploiting
animals; it can just as well be read as maintaining that we are
responsible for protecting their interests. The rest of
the passage appears to tell us to eat vegies.

Genesis 9: 1-4 (after the flood) explicitly gives
permission to eat animals–but when? This is
addressed to people who are often without agriculture,
largely nomadic, who have little else to eat.
It needn’t be read as license to eat animals
because we like the way they taste. There has
long been within Judaism a vegetarian
movement, plenty of vegetarian restaurants among
the orthodox. We are entitled, in light of evolving
moral sensibiliteis, to read the passage in a careful way;
certainly this does no violence to it. If so,
the Bible’s view and PETA’s are close.

The crucial premise in PETA’s argument seems
to be the first. The idea is that refusing to
allow that animals have a moral right not
to be exploited, while
insisting that defective humans less clever
than many animals do have them, is akin to racism
and sexism. Best

I could die laughing at this. Most prey animals have evolved over thousands of years with constant pressure from preditors. They are always on the alert wether it’s people or lions they’re running from. This is so silly one must wonder what this crackpots are smoking…

Well we’ve got plenty of empty mineshafts here ‘up North’.You French had the right idea in 1789,Zub :imp:
Then again,we could always put them up for auction on E-Bay :moreevil:

shudder

Just for context, not that it will change any opinions, but factually, whitetail and almost all mule deer were extinct in N.America by the 40’s 50’s… same as buffalo. I understand that sportsmen supplied the funding for reintroduction, everyone who has enjoyed the sight of deer in the wild owes somebody a thought of appreciation. They didn’t repopulate by themselves.

It’s unfortunate that PETA had to come up, I think. I know why; the link in Sara’s original post was to a PETA site. I would like to think that the problem people have with Prince William spearing an animal would be separate from PETA.

What right do groups of ecoterrorists like PETA have to draw the line at mammals/plants/fish, etc.? Do PETA members take antibiotics? Or if they do, do they take ANYTHING or buy ANYTHING that was tested on animals? That axes all of medicine and a lot of foods.

Sorry. PETA is a nerve for me. Their founder worked in a primate lab and his famous videotape of the animals being “tortured” in medical experiments was a total hoax. He himself put the animals into equipment incorrectly so that they’d look like they were being tortured. Then he “liberated” the lab.

If you have problems with hunting, that’s one thing. If you want people to listen to your message, please don’t invoke PETA.

Stuart

The world is full of irony.

Deer, which we tend to think of as possessing good mothering skills and some sort of caring relationship with other deer, are actually quite ruthless toward each other. Rather than share food, a strong deer will starve a weak one every time.

Wolves, on the other hand, are a quite different story. They have excellent mothering skills, they hunt and share food as a pack, they pick primarily the old and sick from their prey to bring down for food, they care for each other, and they all grieve when a pack member dies.

Our place in nature is that of a predator: closer to the wolf’s role than the deer–however, we often act more like the deer. While it’s true that mankind’s relationship to the natural world–at least that of Western civilization–hasn’t been one to be very proud of, a far worse problem is man’s inhumanity toward his own kind.

–James

Excellent point!

I’m a former member of PETA, but let my membership lapse about 15 years ago because I got tired of watching them give very one-sided versions of every story they told. They rarely, if ever, bother with all of the facts involved in a story. Case in point: The Prince William story that started all of this.

PETA sends horribly graphic photos out to those who are already members. This is like running around your living room and handing out flyers.

They’ve done some good things, such as getting several companies to stop testing products on animals. (Don’t know how you folks feel about it, but my first thought is that I’m not that similar physiologically to a guinea pig, rat, rabbit, dog or cat! What works on them may not work on humans.) There are a lot better, more reliable methods of product testing available.

But they’ve also been responsible for a lot of stupid things, as well. For instance, does anyone here really believe that throwing a bucket of red paint on someone wearing a fur coat will make them change their mind about wearing fur?!

If PETA wants to be taken seriously by the masses, they have to start educating the public about what goes on and include all of the facts, not just those that make their story more horrific. They lose credibility by doing that… if they have any left at this point.

Okay. I’m done with the soapbox. Who wants it next?

Here’s PETA on animal experimentation.
Please remember that weirdos and hypocrits can
speak the truth.

Frequently Asked Questions

\

“Hasn’t every major medical advance been attributable to experiments on animals?”
Medical historians have shown that improved nutrition, sanitation, and other behavioral and environmental factors—not anything learned from animal experiments—are responsible for the decline in deaths since 1900 from the most common infectious diseases and that medicine has had little to do with increased life expectancy. Many of the most important advances in health are attributable to human studies, among them anesthesia; bacteriology; germ theory; the stethoscope; morphine; radium; penicillin; artificial respiration; antiseptics; the CAT, MRI, and PET scans; the discovery of the relationships between cholesterol and heart disease and between smoking and cancer; the development of x-rays; and the isolation of the virus that causes AIDS. Animal testing played no role in these and many other developments.

“But many treatments we have today were developed on animals—like polio vaccines, for instance.”
In fact, two separate bodies of work were done on polio—the in vitro work, which was awarded the Nobel Prize and which did not involve animals, and the subsequent animal tests, in which close to 1 million animals were killed and which the Nobel committee refused to recognize as anything more than wasteful. Also, polio died out just as quickly in areas of the world that did not use the vaccine as in the United States.

However, certainly, some medical developments were discovered through cruel animal tests. But just because animals were used doesn’t mean they had to be used or that primitive techniques that were used in the 1800s are valid today. It’s impossible to say where we would be if we had declined to experiment on animals, because throughout medical history, very few resources have been devoted to non-animal research methods. In fact, because animal experiments frequently give misleading results with regard to human health, we’d probably be better off if we hadn’t relied on them.

“Scientists have the responsibility to use animals to keep looking for cures for the diseases people suffer from.”
More human lives could be saved and more suffering spared by educating people on the importance of avoiding fat and cholesterol, quitting smoking, reducing alcohol and other drug consumption, exercising regularly, and cleaning up the environment than by all the animal tests in the world. Animal tests are primitive, and besides, we have modern technology and human clinical tests.

Even if it could be proved that we have no alternative to using animals—which it can’t—as George Bernard Shaw once said, “You do not settle whether an experiment is justified or not by merely showing that it is of some use. The distinction is not between useful and useless experiments, but between barbarous and civilized behavior.” After all, there are some medical problems that can probably only be cured by testing on unwilling people, but we don’t do it, because we recognize that it would be wrong.

“If we couldn’t use animals, wouldn’t we have to test new drugs on people?”
The choice isn’t between animals and people. There’s no guarantee that drugs are safe just because they’ve been tested on animals. Because of the physiological differences between humans and other animals, results from animal tests cannot be accurately extrapolated to humans, leaving us vulnerable to exposure to drugs that can cause serious side effects.

Ironically, unfavorable animal test results do not prevent a drug from being marketed for human use. So much evidence has accumulated about differences in the effects that chemicals have on animals and humans that government officials often do not act on findings from animal studies. In the last two decades, many drugs, including phenacitin, Eferol, Oraflex, Suprol, and Selacryn, were taken off the market after causing hundreds of deaths and/or injuries. In fact, more than half the drugs the Food and Drug Administration approved between 1976 and 1985 were either removed from the market or relabeled because of serious side effects. If the pharmaceutical industry switched from animal experiments to quantum pharmacology and in vitro tests, we would have greater protection, not less.

“If we didn’t test on animals, how would we conduct medical research?”
Human clinical and epidemiological studies, cadavers, and computer simulators are faster, more reliable, less expensive, and more humane than animal tests. Ingenious scientists have developed, from human brain cells, a model “microbrain” with which to study tumors, as well as artificial skin and bone marrow. We can now test irritancy on egg membranes, produce vaccines from cell cultures, and perform pregnancy tests using blood samples instead of killing rabbits. As Gordon Baxter, cofounder of Pharmagene Laboratories (a company that uses only human tissues and computers to develop and test drugs) says, “If you have information on human genes, what’s the point of going back to animals?”

“Animal experimentation helps animals, too, by advancing veterinary science.”
This is like saying it’s acceptable to experiment on poor children to benefit rich ones. The point is not whether animal experimentation can be useful to animals or humans; the point is that we do not have the moral right to inflict unnecessary suffering on those who are at our mercy.

“Don’t medical students have to dissect animals?”
No, they don’t. In fact, more and more medical students are becoming conscientious objectors, and many students now graduate without having used animals; instead they learn by assisting experienced surgeons. In Great Britain, it is against the law for medical students to practice surgery on animals, and British physicians are as competent as those educated elsewhere. Many of the leading U.S. medical schools, including Harvard, Yale, and Stanford, now use innovative, clinical teaching methods instead of old-fashioned animal laboratories. Harvard, for instance, offers a Cardiac Anesthesia Practicum, where students observe human heart bypass operations, instead of dog labs; the Harvard staff who developed it have recommended that it be implemented elsewhere.

“Should we throw out all the drugs that were developed and tested on animals? Would you refuse to take them?”
Unfortunately, a number of things in our society came about through others’ exploitation. For instance, many of the roads we drive on were built by slaves. We can’t change the past; those who have already suffered and died are lost. But what we can do is change the future by using non-animal research methods from now on.

“Aren’t the animals protected by the law from cruelty?”
There is no law in this country that prohibits any experiment, no matter how frivolous or painful. The Animal Welfare Act is very weak and poorly enforced. The Act does not include rats and mice, even though they are the most commonly used animals. Also, the law does not include cold-blooded animals, birds, or animals traditionally used for food. It is basically a housekeeping act; it doesn’t prohibit any type of experiment on animals in laboratories—they can be starved, electrically shocked, driven insane, or burned with a blowtorch—as long as it’s done in a clean laboratory.

“Most scientists care about animals—they have to, because their research depends on the animals’ well-being.”
Investigations at our most prestigious institutions show that this is simply not the case. At the City of Hope in California, one of the country’s most prominent research facilities, animals starved to death and drowned in their own feces “by accident.” Many experimenters become calloused after years of research and don’t see the animals’ suffering—they treat animals as disposable tools for research. Improvements in the animals’ care are fought as “too expensive.”

“What about peer review and animal care committees at institutions?”
Many such committees are composed mainly or totally of people with vested interests in the continuation of animal experimentation. It has taken lawsuits to permit public access to committee meetings.

“Aren’t cats and dogs killed in pounds anyway? Why not let them be used in experiments to save lives?”
A painless death at an animal shelter is a far cry from a life of severe pain and deprivation in a laboratory before being killed by experimenters.

“Would you allow an experiment that would sacrifice 10 animals to save 10,000 people?”
Suppose the only way to save those 10,000 people was to experiment on one mentally-challenged orphan. If saving people is the goal, wouldn’t that be worth it? Most people will agree that it is wrong to sacrifice one human for the “greater good” of others because it would violate that individual’s rights. But when it comes to sacrificing animals, the assumption is that human beings have rights while animals do not. Yet there is no logical reason to deny animals the same rights that protect individual humans from being sacrificed for the common good.

“What about experiments that don’t harm animals but simply observe them?”
If there really is no harm, we don’t object. But “no harm” means that the animals aren’t kept isolated in barren, cold steel cages, because the stress and fear of confinement are harmful, as shown by the differences in blood pressure between caged and free animals. Caged animals also suffer by being prevented from performing their normal behaviors and social interactions.

“If you were in a fire and could save only your child or your dog, whom would you choose?”
I would save my child, but that’s just instinct. A dog would save her pup. Regardless of whom I save, however, my choice proves nothing about the moral legitimacy of experimenting on animals. I might save my own child instead of my neighbor’s, but that hardly proves that experimentation on my neighbor’s child is acceptable.

Stuart, you said, possibly a little more vehemently, just what I was gonna say. PETA is simply not a mainstream organization.

Jluckett, I can certainly apreciate what you say, but what ARE the better, more reliable ways of testing products? I certainly agree that spraying hairspray or masquera in an animals eyes is wrong. But what about testing the potential lethality of drugs to treat cancer? Should we just begin with people, all of whom may die due to the product? I’ve often heard the argument that it can all be predicted by computers, which is absolutely laughable. We literally don’t understand the helium atom completely, nevermind how some huge, really nasty molecule will behave in a human body somprising some number of cells that’s probably 10 orders of magnitude greater than the number of electrons in a helium atom.

Also, there are some effective treatments out there that have arisen from research done on mice that are genetically engineered to develop cancer. These have saved human lives and probably would have taken many years more if these GE mice hadn’t been available, and possibly never would have been discovered had animal testing not been available at all.