I’m not saying that we should deny their humanity.
They denied their own humanity. We cannot give back to someone what they themselves have destroyed.
They forfeited any right to human respect and decency the moment they set about another human being with scythes. They are not human. A human would not do such things to another human.
Society thinks it’s ok to kill an animal to satisfy its taste buds, then why not kill these three animals for taking a human life in a premeditated act of utter barbarity?
I think, though, that the major disagreement revolves around your wanting to kill these kids because you think they are not human.
Any other disagreements (such as theological beliefs, which you pointed out) are quite surface-level to issue of whether or not these people will be killed at our or our government’s hands.
Thankfully, these particular individuals probably won’t be killed, but many thousands more will be either by the state, fellow inmates, or suicide.
To me it’s almost unbelievable that a person could say another person is not human. You don’t have the right to do that, just as they didn’t have the right to deny the humanity of their victim.
I don’t think they should be killed by the state…they were underage at the time of their crime, and while I support the death penalty in a limited number of cases, I do not when the criminal is a minor at the time of the crime.
Neither do I think they should be tortured by the state.
I do think they should be locked up will all expediency, and remain behind bars for the rest of their natural lives.
As for their fellow inmates, to be blunt, that’s not my problem. If they are killed or worse by their fellow inmates, I won’t be shedding any tears for them, but neither would I directly encourage or support such activity.
It doesn’t bother you at all to know that they’re being beaten, raped, and tortured by fellow inmates? Or that in prisons violent crimes are quite common? Are prisoners not human?
Two of my family members are in prison and I can attest to the fact that they’re human. They’re criminals, convicted multiple times of multiple things, but they are human and they do bleed just like you and me, regardless of the crimes committed.
We can show compassion and concern to our inmates and still have justice rendered. The two are not mutually exclusive.
No they’re not. My beliefs are very Pagan, and have absolutely nothing in common with christian beliefs. My view of metaphysics is radically different to the judeo christian islamic one. If your beliefs are surface level then that is fine, but mine are not.
These people made their choices to step outside the boundaries of humanity when they commited murder, no one threw them out, they left of their own accord. They have no right to demand entry back in when it suits them.
If you’re old enough to take a life then you’re old enough to lose your life!!!
And this is the crux of the issue entirely. Prisoners (at least here in the US) are NOT looked at as human. Several of my family members and family friends worked in the prison system of New York state, and I can say without a doubt that each and every one of these people are looked at and treated as animals. I personally cannot adhere to the theory that a person ceases to be a person by their actions if WE feel that their actions reduce them to something less than a person. Logically speaking, that makes no sense to me. People do bad, and sometimes horrific things (as in this case) but what makes it worse is that they ARE people. If a dog tore someone apart, we wouldn’t be nearly as shocked.
These kids took it upon themselves to hack apart another human, who died in unimaginable fear and agony.
I have no feelings of sympathy towards them at all.
I reserve all of my sympathy for the deceased, and for the family who now has to try to live with the terrible way in which someone they loved and valued left this world.
I do not support the death penalty for minors. That is 100% the total sum of sympathy these murdering teenagers get from me.
I do realise not everyone in prison committed crimed of this magnitude to get there, and I do have some sympathy for those inmates. In fact, I support the whole idea of prison reform in general.
But that is as much as they, or you will get from me on this subject. The fact is, I do believe the most fitting punishment for the crime they committed would be death, and I think it’s a shame that their age protects them from this penalty. I do not support the death penalty for minors…I’ve said that before and I hold to it. But these kids could almost make me change my mind on the subject.
To kill them in a sense would be like setting them free*. To imprison them for life would be the worse punnishment possible in a civilized society.
*Of course this would depend on your beliefs. If you believe in Heaven and Hell, then to kill them would be sentencing them to Hell for all eternity. Whereas, if you believe in reincarnation – they’re free to start over again sooner. And of course there’s a myriad of other possibilities too, but if they have to spend the rest of their life in prison – then at least we know where they are.
This part really should have a double “*” for it’s not quite that easy. Not all of those that believe in Heaven and Hell believe in it the same way. Some believe that if you do something bad, you are condemned for all eternity…no chance for redemption. Some believe that if you are “saved” then no matter what you do, you will still go to heaven. Others believe that even if you commit a heinous act, and are then TRULY sorry for it, and confess your sin, then you can still achieve salvation. You see, it’s all very difficult.
But then we weren’t attempting to get into Theology, were we…sorry about that
You know there really isn’t any conflict between treating criminals with reasonable decency and punishing them at the same time. At least not theoretically speaking. I agree with Cran that if we intentionally treat anyone as less than human we become what we behold. My immortal soul is not in any danger from the most evil among us. Only from myself. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t incarcerate criminals. It does mean that we should do our best to treat them with the respect due to any human life. Even if it is undeserved. By doing this we elevate ourselves.
I’m not saying (at least not trying to say) that either of our beliefs are surface level. What I’m saying (at least trying to say) is that in as much as treating humans like humans goes, our theological beliefs simply don’t matter. We should treat people with kindness, love, and respect no matter how we see God or what we think of the afterlife.
On some level, yes, we are. We are all responsible for each other and this includes our children. We don’t live in a sociological vacuum where we only have to worry about ourselves and our families. Every single person’s life affects our life to some extent and vice versa–they’re all connected. That’s what makes a society a society to begin with. To some extent, no matter how we look at it, we have the concerns of everybody in society on our shoulders.
When one person is murdered, it is as if all of us were murdered. When one person is well, it’s as if all of us are well. In America there’s a very individualistic mindset that has been pervasive for hundreds of years, but underneath it the basic reality of things remains: we don’t live in this country or on this plant in isolation from other people.
There’s an old saying that a society is only as strong as it’s weakest, most downcast members. I believe it to be true on many levels.
While we debate about what should be done with the 3 teens murderers, we shouldn’t forget about the circumstances in which they were brought up in - our society.
Although it is true that the 3 teens’ decision to torture and murder was largely an act of free choice, their upbringing and life experiences would also play a part in their fall. Dysfuctional families, peer cruelty, domestic abuse, poor upbringing - circumstances which convey the messages that disrespecting life and cruelty to fellow human beings is okay. All these social environments can be fertile breeding grounds for humans we later tend to dehumanize as freaks, psychos, and inhuman murderers.
A society which reacts apathetically, turns a blind eye, or disowns these social problems naturally perpetuates the existance of these problems - along with it more horrifying incidences of cruelty and murder. What we do about these social problems as individuals and as a collective society will be a bezillion times more effective than anything we can possibily do to/for the teen murderers and the murder victim. The deed is already done, lives already ruined. What is more important is to focus our energies on doing what we can to reduce circumstances that allow the upbringing of future John Sawdons, Jermaine Jameses, and Rebecca Peeterses.
Personally I feel that the judge deserves a good slapping for what he said about this not being reflective of society. All this sweeping dust under the carpet only perpetuates the problem. Only by taking responsibility for problems as a society can social problems be overcome.
In as far as theology goes, i do not have any gods, and neither do i want or need any. I’m an animist, not a theist. And how i view and understand other spirits inhabiting human bodies is completely different to that of a theist.
Your theological beliefs may not matter to your view of others, my animistic beliefs completely and utterly define my view of others.
You know, TooTs, this is clearly going nowhere. I think thus far my thoughts have been consistent, humane and clear while yours have been narrow, cruel, and often unintelligible. I really don’t know where you’re going other than to say that sometimes it is ok to kill people, and I could never and will never agree with that.
