Newbie Query #2: Rolls at Warp 9 Session Speed--Mission Cri

Whistle
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Hi Everyone! Im back from a weekend at the Florida Folk Festival. There was a wide mix of music, including celtic, but the best part was not the scheduled show at all…rather, wandering through the performers campsites at night and listening to the sessions round the campfires…a little cowboy fiddlin here, Irish jigs and reels there, and of course some Turkey in the Straw in the back corner.

Anyway, now I’m back and I’m mighty confused. I carefully listened to the irish sessions, which in the evenings were proceeding at what I now can only assume to be standard session tempo (something approaching Warp 9). Some very accomplished sounding whistlers and flautists, but I was surprised by this observation: unless my ear requires a lot more training and I just wasnt hearing it, I didnt hear hardly any rolls from the whistles and flutes in any of these sessions. In fact, not a lot of ornamentation at all…or rather some but not lots and lots, and certainly not enough for what soem on the board are calling the “irish” feel.

Now I’m wondering about this, because as a beginner Im trying to figure out just what exactly my objectives are and how to focus my practicing.

Most of the local whistlers I’ve met got their start with the standard flute…dont know if this is a factor here or not.

So what’s the real deal here?

Is it just the case that standard session speed is just too fast for lots of rolls in the normal case (I know Ms. Bergin gets em in there, but she, of course, is Mary Bergin). Or is it the case that lots of ornamentaiton really is passe now (i.e. they can do it but choose not to)? Or is this just a local style? Dont get me wrong, Im not raggin on my local players, but Im not hearing what I would expect.

I’ve heard some comment that L.E. McCullough’s CDs have a style that is not standard at fast speeds. But even his ornamentation is more than what I’ve been hearing on my side of the swamp.

I’ve also heard that true traditional tunes were played much slower in the old days and have only recently sped up due to modern session dymamics. I’ve heard that these tunes were originally dance tunes, but I’ve also heard that session speed is much too fast for proper dancing, almost as if session playing evolved once it was freed of the annoying encumbrance of human dance limitations.

This is not fun, because I like the sound of properly ornamented tunes, but I also want to play with other people. So it seems my choices are play slowly with ornamentation alone, or at Warp 9 with some ornamentation if I can get it in there and still keep up, but the main emphasis is keeping up.

Since a suggestion at a session to slow things down is, of course, unthinkable, I have some questions for you Worthies out there:

  1. Why do you play tunes at sessions so darned fast? Because of the challenge and its fun to try to play them so fast? Dont get me wrong, I’m not intending to criticize you speed demons at all, but I am wondering if you feel you are able to put as much into a tune at Warp 9 as you are at, say, Warp 5?

  2. Are you playing these tunes at Warp 9 with full ornamentation? I mean really. Or do you have a different ornametnation style for non-session settings that is more “traditional” oprnamentation, and stripped down for the session stuff?

  3. Do you think a relative newcomer would be accepted being able to play faster with no ornamentation? I guess Im just curious since Ihavent heard a lot of live sessions, and havent been to a lot of folk festivals, how many of you really are playing fully ornamented tunes at Warp 9? Are there really sessions out there where the whistlers sound like Mary Bergin, with both speed and ornamentation? Its confusing to listen to tutorial CDs and take Bro Steve, then feel like you toss all that out the window when you show up at a session.

As an aside, one of the last performances I saw was by a small celtic group that wasnt as technically accomplished as the mainline celtic groups that had played the prior day…though their fiddling and etc was not as polished (some pitch problems, etc), they took the tunes slower, and they had time to put some feeling and phrasing into their tunes, rather than proving they could survive a speedrace. I have to say that theirs was the performance I enjoyed the most.

DAZED

P.S. Sorry for what must be the longest post in recent memory, but I never seem to have the skill to write a shorter letter, as it were.

The](http://www.geocities.com/whistleannex/index.html%22%3EThe) Whistle Annex, Home of the Chiffboard Matrix

[ This Message was edited by: DazedinLA on 2002-05-26 19:26 ]

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Lots of issues, brief reply. I am just back from playing all night, the session was not particularly fast. They don’t need to be. Sometimes we go it bit faster if the dancers are in an energetic mood.

Play nice music, put in all the bits you think should be there, get your phrasing and everything right and speed is not all that important. At least that is what I would think.







[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-05-26 20:16 ]

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That is a lot questions Kevin and it’s hard to answer them anyway without having heard what you heard.

But - at sessions, esp. in the New World, tunes are often played far faster than many traditional musicians would be comfortable with. And if they were comfortable with the speed, they might not be comfortable with the interpretation.

Maybe that festival wasn’t the best place to expect to hear Irish trad played in a trad Irish style.

Try to get over to East Durham for the Catskills Irish Arts week. Go and listen to fine, mature traditional musicians such as Felix Dolan, Mike McHale and company playing in a session. That’ll give you something to contrast and compare with.

I don’t know anyone who drops ornaments to play fast. Ornaments are really part and parcel of the style. Different players may use less or more, but you shouldn’t have to change your style to keep up with someone else.

Anyway it’s entirely up to you. If you want to play at Warp 9, whatever that is, do whatever you have to in order to achieve that. If you want to develop an authentic traditional style, however, you need to be sure you’re listening to good traditional musicians. Make sure you have something other than supergroups and virtuosoic soloists.

Develop your knowledge and taste, and then you can judge for yourself whether a session is good bad or indifferent, and whether you even want to join in with it.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with playing fast, BTW. But because you’re playing fast, that doesn’t mean you’re playing well - in my book.

4

As you get better your perception of speed will also change. I think you’re ear gets
faster, just like telling telling one e-minor reel from another is an acquired skill. On Friday night I was at a camp-out, and everybody was sitting around the camp fire, chatting. I pulled out my (quiet) whistle and played a set of reels at what I thought was a very moderate speed (I am not that good yet, and didn’t want to start too fast only to fumble around). Afterwards someone, who hasn’t listened to a lot of Irish music, commented, “Wow you play really fast.” Well, not compared to Finbar Furey, I don’t. :slight_smile:

About leaving our ornamentation: It took me a good long time of listening to even hear rolls. And in a session you may have the added challenge of different stuff going on at the same time. The first fiddle plays “e~A3…”, the second fiddle plays “eAGA”, the flute plays “eAA2”, the third fiddle plays “eG 3(AAA”, while the accordion plays “eA 3(AGA”, damn him.

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On 2002-05-26 19:17, DazedinLA wrote



Since a suggestion at a session to slow things down is, of course, unthinkable, I …


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The](http://www.geocities.com/whistleannex/index.html%22%3EThe) > Whistle Annex, Home of the Chiffboard Matrix

[ This Message was edited by: DazedinLA on 2002-05-26 19:26 ]

A request to slow thing down a bit is not unthinkable.Excessive speed in a session is mostly the result of a collective musical inexperience,nervousness and a desire to impress.A well led session by experienced and sensitive players will usually cater for the less experienced and adjust tempo where necessary.Dont be afraid to ask but also dont expect group compliance if your request comes across as a demand or has a critical tone to it.:slight_smile: peace, Mike

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As Stevie points out, ornamentation is part of the music, so cutting it out entirely in order to be able to play along would be a shame. On the other hand, no one is telling you to include “lots of” ornamentation in order to sound right, often less is better. So cut down on the rolls if they make you feel dizzy, and stick with cuts (far more essential anyway, IMHO).

Another thing to point out is that ideally using ornamentation shouldn’t make it harder to play a tune at a fast tempo. I have spoken to players who feel that playing a roll actually helps make that section of the tune easier to play, since you get three eight-notes worth of “pre-programmed” music where you can “take a break” so to speak.

Of course, as others have pointed out, sessions shouldn’t necessarily be driven at break-neck speed. IMHO, playing tunes very fast can easily make them lose some of their inherent “swing”, and you don’t want that. If you get the chance to start a tune yourself, start it at a more comfortable speed and let the others adjust to your speed for a while.

:slight_smile:
Jens

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Remember,These are dance tunes. Unless the dancers have warp 9 feet, the music need not be that fast.
Our local Comhaltas session has a good approach to the speed thing. First hour of the monthly session is “slow session” for less experienced players, although the speed sometimes tends to pick up. Then, after a brief business meeting, the pace is a lot faster. Unless I know a tune really well, I can’t keep up then.

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On 2002-05-27 06:21, brewerpaul wrote:
Remember,These are dance tunes. Unless the dancers have warp 9 feet, the music need not be that fast.

The music doesn’t need to be that fast, you are right there, there is a tendency though especially with competitive stepdancers and some corners of the set dancing world too, to demand a speed for dancing higher than the speed the musicians would play when playing to please themselves.

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Go to Mick Woodruff’s page and just try to make the same sounds he’s playing, you’ll get good at it, sooner or later!

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Dance songs/tunes should not be ‘warp 9.’ I don’t know about other Irish Dancers, but I could never dance at ‘warp 9.’ But, you should be able to play them at a pretty good clip, but without having to omit the traditional ornamentation.

You shouldn’t play the tunes so fast that you can’t take a breath here and there and you end up dropping a couple beats… But you shouldn’t play them so slowly as that they are dragging for speed. Basically, find a middle ground. Jigs have a lazy kind of a feel to them, Reels are more energetic, but not played “straight-forward,” Hornpipes are played similar to Reels, but slower and more bouncy.

I hope that helps.

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I’m thinking it’s easier to learn to play fast than to incorporate good ornamentation and phrasing and still sound “good.” I’m also thinking that most people you are going to run into at sessions have only been playing long enough to play fast, but haven’t worked out the phrasing, ornamentation aspect to any great degree, which takes a lot longer. I suspect some people just never chose to deal with it because it’s complicated and there isn’t much in the way of instruction available. When you learn more tunes, you’ll realize that a lot of session favorites are the easier, less complex or demanding tunes.

In other words, I believe Dazed heard what he thought he heard: some fast playing w/ minimal ornamentation, probably by people who have been playing Irish music for a year or two. There are a lot of technically able people who know their instruments, but are new to the idiom of Irish music. And, don’t fool yourself; you don’t learn it quickly. People develop different skills at this music depending upon what they practice. If you practice speed, then you’ll learn to hold the rhythm at high speed. It won’t help you learn ornamentation and phrasing, which will only come if you slow down and work on it. That means humbling yourself and playing slowly, which may not feel impressive to you in front of others. It’s the slower path to getting good. Once you have it down, you can speed up and have all the elements in place. (And you’ll be unique.)
Tony

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Right on Brother Tony!!

Well said!!!

Loren “I’m still a lousy whistle player, but now I have a good excuse” B.

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Talking about speed, last saturday night I was in Ennis to try to hear some good music at the festival. Well, during the evening, before the “real” musicians arrived, some folks at a table started playing. One with a fiddle, two with a whistle. Well, they all sucked, but there was a women with a Susato who actually made me angry! She kinda “led” the gathering because she “knew” many tunes. She was playing fast. Very fast, with no ornamentation. The rythm was bad. When I started playing, this is the way I wanted (or was?) playing. Very fast, with almost no respect for rythm and style. (until StevieJ saved my life and tried to get the crap out of me!). Anyway, I’m far than being an expert now, but I’m pretty confident in my tastes in irish music, and with time I was able to develop the ear for rythm and style. Now, there was a 10 years old girl at Custy’s shop who was trying a Generation whistle. She played lightning fast, with lotsa ornamentation and very nice style. THAT made me jealous… :wink: [Especially when I was there trying a Low F, all proud of myself, and I just hoped I could hide under a table or something when she started playing]

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Amen! Thanks Peter, Paul, Bloo, Tony, Loren, Az, Elf and Everyone.

I must confess that learning the “simple” instrument called the tin whistle has been every bit as challenging, frustrating and rewarding as my experience learning the French Horn, and in some ways its even more challenging than that.

Its lonely taking it slow, doing it “right”.

I walked amongst the tents this weekend, moving from camp to camp, watching the huddled groups of musicians playing their jigs and reels, some in total darkness, some illuminated softly by the light of a flickering fire, some harshly by the glare of a Coleman lantern…beautiful music accented by laughter, barking dogs, rattling pots and pans, and snatches of old tunes from another era.

Just as the music of the pub seems a naturally Irish experience, so too did this outdoor scene feel uniquely American…despite what we’ve been saying about ornamentation, this “imperfect” music seemed perfect, in a strange way, in this outdoor envioronment…a bit of the heritage of the American West come alive. Yeah, the playing wasnt correct, but watching and listening was nevertheless an unexpectedly moving experience, both for the beauty of the music, and the loneliness of not yet being able to participate in the musical experience.

So, thanks to all for your sage and kind advice. I have resolved to keep working at it the slow and hard way…it requires a lot of patience, but I guess its worth it, especially if there is a chance that someday there will be a seat at the campfire for me.

Kev