Need session etiquette advice

Trad Irish Music
21

The reality is, it’s normally a few people who lead the session, there are a few I’ve been to where everyone is at the same level of playing but that’s not that often.

About the best session I’d been to was one where some of the best muso’s in the UK were at a house warming in London with 40 of us going at it till 6 in the morning! That was something else! Many of them were truly world class!

If I was for example in a room with Liam O’Flynn, I doubt I’d be able to be fully independent of him. I’d probably see where he’s going with the music and fit in with that. In the session I’m going to now, many people are taking their cue from me.

It’s great when you get a session where everyone has the power to hold their own, but sadly, that’s a rare thing to be treasured. You’re talking about a session that has no beginners trying to keep up with the experienced who are both inspired from them but also trying to learn from them.

I’m all for really good guitarists and bodhran players though, they DO take the music to another height. If you doubt me on this, listen to any good CD (Lunasa, Martin Hayes with Denis, etc) and you’ll see exactly what I’m talking about.

I think though that too many people want to join in on a session and rather than choosing an instrument they really want to learn, they choose something that looks easy (drum, guitar) but really isn’t at all!

If a session has muso’s that each have been playing for 20 years, you’ll get what you mentioned as the ideal. The reality is, you’ll have people playing for 1 or 2 years next to someone that’s been at it for 20 years. What do you do?

IN one of the sessions I went to last week, a Bodhran player couldn’t play for peanuts and wouldn’t stop playing. My partner who is a good Bodhran player didn’t play much as this other woman wouldn’t give her a chance (too many drummers spoil a session). Rather than stopping and listening to my partner play and learn something, she just keeps making the same mistakes…so I did my slip jigs routine to shut her up for a while!

It’s these people that bug me, not the ones that actually want to learn and may occassionally overdo it in enthusiasm. We’ve all been there.

The problem is, there are unwritten rules for sessions that we all know but the uninitiated don’t. Perhaps we need to do up an advice sheet for people or something?

Cheers!

Andy

22

The thing about accompanists is, often they don’t even have to be bad musicians per se (or drunk) to take away from the music.

23

In this hypothetical situation I’m not saying that you are to be fully independent of him, just not using him as a crutch to keep a steady beat. (if you have do that to you’re probably better off simply listening and observing his playing this time round)

In fact with great sessions you should not aim to be fully independent. You want to be able to listen to your fellow musicians and respond, bounce the energies off each other. Its the interaction that brings the experience to a whole new level. Thats one thing about those 40 people sessions, its just a wall of sound and who’s listening to who?

Again I’m just talking about fundamentals like being able to keep a steady beat before going out to session. You don’t exactly have to be Seamus Ennis to do that. Its a basic courtesy to your fellow musicians and the foundation for musical interaction.

24

How do you stop beginners going out to sessions though? Keeping a beat may sound simple enough, but in reality, most beginner’s don’t until at least 3 to 4 years of serious learn time. Most are going to sessions at about 1 year’s time mark. I think you’re talking about the more closed high brow sessions rather than the ‘average’ one. I agree with you about the ideal, but we also live in the real world where such ‘courtesy’ of staying away from sessions for 4 years first until competence is seen is sadly not likely. Nor is it necessarily desireable.

I admit that I’ve often given up on a session because too many beginners’ have spoilt the session (or too many English trad folk musicians!). Sometimes, I even prefer no session…but you’ll never stop the beginner’s going to sessions (unless you do a closed one). You can either do the ‘musical facist’ thing and ban beginner’s from sessions or you can find some way to incorporate them into the session and encourage them but keep them ‘under one’s wing’. I prefer the later but draw the line at those who just want an ‘easy option’ (choosing an instrument just so you’ve got something to bang on whilst drinking a pint) rather than willing to really show enthusiasm and learn.

In the hypothetical situation with Liam, I’d be the beginner again…I certainly wouldn’t be leading the session at that point, which, is my main point, a session is an average of the experience of the musicians. If the mean average is 3 years, you’ve got a very basic session. If it’s 7 years, you’ve got a good one. If it’s 15 years, you’re well on your way to stardom! If the average experience is even greater than that, well, you should take the session on tour!

Seems like we agree on the other point of muso’s feeding off each other. Interdependence rather than independence. In that 40 person session, where the average experience level was in the 15 to 20 years category, it wasn’t just a wall of sound, it was a crecendo of power playing! The whole building was shaking with emotion and fever! The quality of playing was truly awesome! You couldn’t distinguish between the music and yourself…it was like a whole 'nother level of session to the norm…several of the best musicians in London were there and most were melody instruments. It didn’t sound like a wall of sound, it was so powerful the very walls were shaking! The creative energies created a synergy beyond anything I’ve experienced since…

Cheers!


Andy

25

At risk of sounding like the president of Eldarion’s fan club, he’s spot on again. Over the years we’ve had a superb guitar player in our session from a jazz-orientated background (as if I’d know - jazz - yikes!). But he was nothing more than a one-man session-wrecker to the rest of us. He doesn’t come any more. Then we occasionally have to put up with another guy who was actually a member of a fairly famous 70s-80s rock band. Brilliant guitarist…one chord for every note of every reel…know what I mean? ITM is funny stuff to accompany and you have to have it totally under your skin before you inflict yourself on everyone else. Like bodhran players, guitarists are simply not needed, so if they want to be a part of it they need to adopt a huge degree of humility and be prepared to learn from the very few who have proved that they can hack it in an idiomatic way…therein lyeth another thread!

Steve

26

That is exactly the case with the guitarist I mentioned earlier. She is classically trained, and can play melodies quite admirably. Come the time for backup, however, it’s a brutal thing. At least she brings a metal-strung guitar to the sessions, now.

27

That sounds very odd to me. How can something so basic to the music take 3 to 4 years of serious learn time to master? Evidently it is something that is not prioritised for these people - too busy trying to play fast maybe.

However I do agree that beginners are going to play in sessions before they are ready (and even before being able to generate a steady beat). Does this happen because this is just “folk music”? What ever happened to listening to the session - or is the session not worth listening to?

Premature session playing is simply detrimental to all parties. It’s not the most respectful thing to do for one thing, the beginner should realise that the other musicians do feel the effect in music dynamics. They are real people and have ears, this is not a album recording one is playing to. It is also bad for the beginner and can stunt one’s musical growth. The beginners end up sacrificing everything to “sound like” they are playing in unison to the melody. Truth is, throughout the whole time they do not learn to independently generate a steady rhythm, usually stuck with playing the bare bones of the melody repeat after repeat, practicing and reenforcing their own bad habits over and over again. It is just the recipe for turning oneself into a mediocre hack who churns out uninspiring sod.

28

Here’s another idea that’s just a suggestion-(although there have been some great one’s here), and may be commonly done for all I know :roll: -

If there’s less skilled folks wrecking the music for those who play much better, have a set time at the beginning of the evening’s musical enjoyment, that is open for folks who think they can play with the seasoned musicians.They play for the first thirty minutes to an hour, for example, This is more a practice session during which new players have their time with the group.The time is set aside for everyone who has the idea they want to play in the session . Be sure that this is a steadfast rule ’ You can’t play in the later session until you are deemed “worthy”.The better players may want to rotate around here for this duty of playing with the early group. . If it’s in a pub/bar talk to the owner. Get a sign posting the “rules” and have the owner post it in a very visible place on session nights. This lets everyone know they have to play by the rules, without the ordeal of confronting some one and telling them they just can’t cut it and are ruining it for the devoted players.

After the designated “first session” time limit, the session is closed to the “general public” and players can play in the second session only if invited .Those recieving pratice and instruction during the first session can either leave or stick around and learn from listening/observing the better players. New folks can’t just waltz in and play without passing through the first session. This gives a realistic goal to work toward and keeps those who can play on a higher level from frustration.


This can develop the talented folks who are not up to the level of the second group or not really familiar with ITM into good musicians that will become assets to the music. They’ve got the will to practice and learn and they will take the experience home and put in the long hours to become really good. This will also weed out the ones that thought they could do it, but in fact cannot. Unfortunately, there are those folks whose musical “sense” is so poor that they will never have a clue. At least this keeps them from messing with the advanced group, since they will never progress and hopefully will soon find something else to do.

It’s kinda like having different grade sessions when I think of it. We do it in pipe bands. The grade five band will meet and some players will work their way up to Grade one. Others will never progress out of grade five and are perfectly happy. I’ve also seen this done it in clogging classes. Even if you say ," I can do it," you’ve still got to prove it to the powers that be, before you move into a more advanced group.

I don’t have a clue if this would work for sessions, but it might. If the session is in a bar/pub get the owner to work with you on this. It’s to their advantage also to keep those who are really making good music happy and at their establishment.

29

This worked for many years in our area but there comes a point where a problem arises with who does the “deeming”. In the egalitarian self governed session community clear leadership is not always evident especially to the newby. And any community that is open enough to have people trying to sit in will be subject also to a lot of coming and going of the more experienced players. Eventually the hierarchy breaks down and the session is abandoned.

Most session have to grow strong enough to withstand the onslaught of negative forces or become transient as tinkers, moving from one place to another to have a few months of peace until the ‘others’ find them.

The pipe band thing works because of the clear hierarchy.

30

But the problem with these rules and the anti-guitarist thing is that it really starts to become ‘musical facism’.

A balance needs to be struck but I do like the idea of beginners and experienced sessions one starting after the other and it’s up to the individual to self-categorise themselves. This gets the balance that’s needed. Occassionally, there will be the odd person who puts themselves in the wrong category but that will show. With these adjustments, the idea will work I think.

A mate of mine is a brilliant guitarist and a top whilste player too. He knows just what to do. Once again, a brilliant Irish music guitarist or Bodhran player is worth their weight in gold at a session. Just because someone can play jazz or bluesgrass well doesn’t qualify though.

Finally, on timing, you say it’s a simple thing but I’ve heard so many 20 year players get it wrong too, so I’m not so sure you’re correct there either. Sure they can hold a basic beat, but to get it consistently right on every beat all the time is a whole different ball game and so many people get it wrong (I even come unstuck on the odd occassion). Can a 1 year muso do this consistently, no, but they pick up that beat by sitting in a session and then listening to CD’s and so forth. If you’re saying that you got perfect timing after one year, then you’re the exception not the rule. Most have to work hard at it and it starts to come after several years of playing.

I don’t advise players to play in a session until at least 3 years experience in anycase. I’ve heard two theories, the traditional piping theory where one doesn’t enter sessions full stop, except with other pipers and the more modern version where you enter sessions but have time out periods to just simply work on your own for a while to develop your own style. I’m of the later variety and I suspect most here are. However, I’ve met many pipers who don’t play in sessions but are happy to play with other pipers.

Hope that comes full circle on this tingy?


Cheers!

Andy

31

You may regard sessions as egalitarian, BL, but I do not. Experience and ability ought always to be deferred to. I practice this. I also make the mistake of expecting people in general to find this yardstick to be obvious.

See? The leadership question is solved.

Just don’t ask me to lead sessions. :laughing:

32

It occurs to me that it helps a lot to know all the other sessions in your area, especially any slow-sessions or Comhaltas hosted leaning sessions or such.

It’s much easier to tell someone to go somewhere else than to tell them to just go away. It’s the gentlest way I’ve ever seen anyone told that they weren’t fit for a session (not myself… at that time I was only going to sessions to listen and still trying to get ‘wild rover’ up to speed :astonished: Then I later already knew where the slow session was… :wink: Always learn from someone -else’s- embarassment if at all possible, it’s much easier on the ego. :wink: )

33

By the way, whatever ideas I may espouse per the rights of rank, I think it also behooves me to be helpful and supportive to those who are still finding their legs as compared to my own situation (which isn’t much). I would hope that my own superiors would do the same for me. A relative beginner is one thing. Willful ignorance astride an unreined ego is something else altogether. But I’m still nice, usually, until the point where something finally breaks in cases such as that. Only a couple of friends ever know when I reach that point. I do indeed try to be as constructive as my pain permits. :wink:

34

Firstly the number of years one has been playing can only be taken as the roughest guides of ability. I have heard people who have claimed to play for 10 years play and they can still sound worse than someone who has been playing for 2. What matters is not the number of years, but what they have been doing with them. Have they been actively listening to great musicians, have they spent alone time with their music, do they have a right mindset, do they practice often? Have the years been spent horning skill and ability or reenforcing bad habbits and poor playing?

I’m also not sure if you’re talking about slipping up or not being able to keep a steady beat. If someone who plays for 20 years cannot generate an independently steady beat, and their rhythm is still poor, there is clearly something terribly gone wrong there. There’s no need to make keeping a steady beat sound so illusive and mystical almost, its clearly possible if the learner prioritises it and listen to themselves with a critical ear.

35

Many folks in my city are just doing the private session thing to solve the problems. A few friends of mine are having Bb sessions sometimes on tuesdays, I’m having private sessions with a fiddler friend of mine (and sometimes another great piper). To me it’s the only way I can make sure not being frustrated coming out of a session. There’s a “public” session on mondays, but it’s so crowded we often end up in a small room in the same pub and have a 4-5 people session. That’s another thing, I can’t stand big sessions anymore. If there’s more then 6-7 musicians, I tend to want to find something smaller, with no more than a whistle and one guitar (no bodhran if possible).

Any public session I’ve known, even one I was running myself, I had to stop because some musicians I didnt want to play with started going. You just can’t avoid it. It’s great for Eskin that he can just tell them, but some of the folks who show up are nice people, and even friends, and you just can’t tell them they’re not welcome, cancelling the session is sometimes the only way.

36

Excellent advice where the agony-bags are concerned :smiling_imp: Now if only we can pursuade the goat-beaters to follow suit :slight_smile:

As for the miscreants screwing up the sessions, why not offer them a solo spot and let the audience express their opinion?

37

The problem with all these proposed “rules” is they are very clumsy attempts to replace having good soical sense. Because really, what hurts sessions is not inexperienced players – it’s inconsiderate players.

Some of you may remember seeing posts about an amazing session involving people named Steph and Brock (and Grey Larson and Mary Bergin, I believe) the St. Louis Tionol last spring. Well, at the time, the Steph in question had only been playing fiddle for two-and-a-half years. I wasn’t there, but I do play regularly with her, and let me tell you – during that third year of her playing (ie before she had a full three years’ experience) she was a pure joy to play with in session.

But even before that – back when she only had six months’ experience on fiddle, and had a scratchy tone and tuning and rhythm issues – we welcomed her into our sessions. She respected the session, she was eager to learn, and she was good company. People like that should always be welcome, no matter how much experience they have. And they shouldn’t avoid sessions, because learning to play with others is an important component of learning to play – as is learning how to behave in sessions.

On the other hand, our main local session is dying because its most experienced player, our ostensible leader half the time, has atrociously bad session manners. He’s the sort of fiddler who, seeing he’s playing with whistle and flute, will start a bunch of tunes that heavily use the G string, or are in A major or G minor, or are so obscure the second-most-experienced player (not me!) doesn’t know them. He’s managed to chase away some of our best players, and frankly, the only reason I show up on his nights is for that magical moment when he gets sick of playing and goes to have a drink in the corner.

I would trade him for Steph at six months every time…

38

what hurts sessions is not inexperienced players – it’s inconsiderate players.

Good post colomon I could not agree more !!! :thumbsup:

39

I have had dealings with exactly this sort of fiddler myself, and it’s always aggravating. Our guy wasn’t the session leader, but he sure acted like he was…starting 2/3 of the tunes when he came to session, usually obscure tunes in some odd key, always at a blistering pace. And then he’d put on this sheepish, false obsequious face, and go “Oh, you guys didn’t know that one…gee I’m so sorry” and then repeat the performance with another similar tune.

Maybe it’s just me, but I think making music is a lot like making love: The goal isn’t necessarily to see how novel you can make it, or how fast you can get to the end. Though I suppose sometimes that sort of thing can be fun in moderation. :wink:

Last I heard, he went off to try to start his own session with a drummer and hand-picked musicians that could “keep up with him”. I haven’t heard that it’s gone anywhere, though. Can’t say I’m much surprised. I think with the way he wants to play, he’d be better off forming a band (since he is a rather good fiddler), rather than inflicting himself onto sessions.

40

Now you know why I don’t like telling people I play the mouth organ…moving swiftly on… :blush:

Steve