Most top whistle players are not...

Whistle
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…primarily whistle players!

It just occurred to me, while thinking about tonguing and pipers who play the whistle, that many of the whistle players that I most admire are best known as exponents of another instrument, usually pipes or flute.

Of the players I most enjoy listening to, only a handful are primarily whistlers. The list of those whose primary instrument is something else is much longer. (And soemtimes I like what they do on the whistle perhaps better than the specialist whistlers. Maybe because it’s the latter are often busy “pushing the envelope”.)

What does this all mean? That very few top-class musicians stick with the whistle only? If so, why?

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because you can’t make a lot of money by just being a whistle player!

Nico

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Yeah, compared to all of those wealthy pipers and flutists. :slight_smile:

My hypothesis is that it’s the sum of two factors: first, that people that tend to play the whistle well enough to record also tend to play another holes-in-wood-tube instrument; and second, that someone that plays both flute and whistle is a flutist that plays whistle, and not a whistler that plays flute.

    -Rich
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On 2001-08-03 11:37, StevieJ wrote:

Of the players I most enjoy listening to, only a handful are primarily whistlers. The list of those whose primary instrument is something else is much longer. (And soemtimes I like what they do on the whistle perhaps better than the specialist whistlers. Maybe because it’s the latter are often busy “pushing the envelope”.)

I’m not sure we are thinking of the same names.

Musicians that go over the top:
Seamus Egan: who has settled down as of late has recorded some really racy music. He also has been recorded on 10 instruments that I know. flute, pipes, mandolin, mandola, tenor banjo, whistle, tres, quatro, nylon string guitar, & bodhran.

Larry Nugent, who went over the top quite a bit on two for two (one of my favorites recordings) is also a flute player. He has also settled down as of late.

Brian Finnegan, OK. there’s a whistle player for you. Maybe a bit over the top, but I’ve realized my tonguing skills are horrible and Brian uses them for a very unique effect.

Davy (Ego) Spilling: Gods greatest gift since Yanni and David Copperfield. Besides, doesn’t he play Hungarian Uilleann pipes that he made from dirt and someone’s rib?

Hevia, also a Spanish piper. Did I mention he’s SPANISH.

Mary Bergin & Brian Hughs, Mary has certainly had more impact on whistles than almost anybody else, but I you played me Brian’s CD to me before I heard it the first time, some of the tracks would have made me think Feadoga Stain 3. Brians more liberal choice of accompanyment would be my only give away. Very traditional, very fast, highly technically skilled, very musical. The speed of these two would be the only over the top feature in either of their playing. Being the Fleadh (spelling butchered?) tradition that they come from, this would only be over the top in a session.

I have trouble of thinking of anyone else. Other than D.S., I enjoy work from all of them in its time. Many of the other masters could never be thought of as going over the top, so far as I can tell.

What does this all mean? That very few top-class musicians stick with the whistle only? If so, why?

I think learning multiple instruments with different limitations and strenghts really teaches you more about an instrument. I had some serious rhythm problems two years ago and I picked up the bodhran. Things improved. Judging by my problems as of late, I should pick it up again. The tenor banjo taught me a bit about attacks and that simple playing can be more powerful than over the top.

I think over the top has more to do with commercial success than it does desire or whistle only playing. I know I preferred over the top playing more two years ago than I do now. It took me a while to appreciate the sweet and steady over the fast and furious. Now I appreciate both, but have moods that require one or the other for listening pleasure.

Can you share more about what you think is over the top?

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Stevie,
I would be interested if you could name some of your favourite players who also play other instruments (other than flute or pipes). I know very few whistlers who also play fiddle/concertina/box etc. other than Gearoid O hAllmhurain or John Williams.
One thought that occurred to me is that traditionally the only whistles available in Ireland were Generation-type which were too quiet to be heard in a ceili band or big session. Even Mary Bergin known mainly for her whistling performed on flute for several years before going back to whistle as her primary instrument.
Sue

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I’d like to interject, at this point, a suggestion for a top-notch performer who plays at a moderate and reasonable speed, and is absolutely mesmerizing: Martin Hayes, a fiddle player. I recently bought “Under the Moon,” after listening to his first cd for awhile. Dude, you can learn tons about rhythm, ornamentation, and the pure essence of Irish music by listening to this guy. And it’s just plain fun to listen to. (If you like that sort of thing.)
Tony

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I believe one reason for this is that Irish people wanting their children to learn music often buy the little dears a whistle first because it is cheap. If they show any musical aptitude at all, then they get them a set of pipes or a fiddle or something else more expensive. Incidentally another fiddler who plays the whistle beautifully is Sean Smyth. Try his ‘Blue Fiddle’ CD. There are a couple of whistle tracks on it that are simply great. You will enjoy the fiddling too!

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For what its worth, while looking for info on the Loretta Reid Band, I discovered the following: Reid plays Tin Whistle, Irish Flute, Concertina and Button Accordion.

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To all the above, I think you are all right in what you have written. My own experience does not take precedence to your thoughts but reinforces the idea that playing a totally different instrument, say bodhran, to that of tinwhistle or flute; gives another view on the music, and broadens the range of the music your playing.

One musician that I admire and who instructs on the fiddle. Told me years ago if you want to learn to play the bodhran, learn to dance. Ceili, Sets or Step dancing they will teach the beat or heart of the music. I did, and it worked. It also help with the whistle to understand what Irish dance music was all about.

The late Al Purcell, one the world’s greatest uilliean pipers and most patient of teachers, was for a time my tinwhistle instructor. After a while he said that I and others were ready to move on—to flute–or the pipes if we wanted. And that he will not influence the way we choose. With that, it is his belief that every instrument has its right to be no less or no more than the other. And if we just wanted to remain with the whistle, that was also a good choice. To Al playing the music with heart and soul and honesty was more important than which instrument you played. But be your best at it and share what you have learned with others. It is not your music.

God bless him and all other teachers that have that patience and insight. So play your music and don’t fret over who plays what instrument. Enjoy what they are doing.

Mark

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I thought it might be interesting to complete the original sentence in various ways…

most top whistles players are not…

…reading this at the same time

…deaf

…fixated at the oral stage

…who you think they are

…wanted by the Gardi (police)

…earning money as babysitters

…sessioning at Shanna Quay

…concerned.

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Funny Steve. In your post, I think all of the above and few more.

A Publicist!

We whistlers need a publicists or an agent, and maybe a publican. Maybe we need to bring our light from beneath the basket. Maybe we have to educate the world to the whistle as a serious instrument and have it take its rightful place in the pantheon of the universe and the recording studio, and the concert stage and the the the … my mind is boggling itself with these wild thoughts of absolute power that we here at The Chiff and Fipple could accomplish if we set our minds and hearts to it.

Don’t ask why! ASK WHEN!!!

Mark

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Hey Mark J, I thought about naming names but didn’t really want to get into a list of favourite and unfavourite players and their merits. And I can’t tell you what I meant by “over the top” – because that’s not the expression I used :smiley: . But if you want an example of a serious envelope-pusher, well since she has been mentioned, there’s Loretto Reid. (I know she plays all those other instruments, but she’s someone that I would think of as primarily a whistler.)

My main point in making the post was just to share the insight that had just struck me – I can’t think of any other serious instrument many of whose best exponents are best known as something else.

The envelope-pushing thing was a parenthesis, but I’ve thought about it some more since. If you’re making a solo whistle record these days (post-Mary Bergin, post-Sean Ryan), chances are you are going to want to impress. Pipers and fluters may tend to play whistle for a bit of relief, a change to something lighter and nimbler. They may not have the same need to make an impression and they may just play the tunes as they feel them (instead of using the tunes as a vehicle to say, hey listen to what an incredible whistle player I am – which is the impression I get from some recordings).

I don’t know, but whatever the reason I definitely enjoy the whistling of some pipers more than that of some whistle specialists. If you want an example I give you Mick O’Brien. There are also pipers who are not widely known that play the whistle beautifully – Canada’s own Debbie Quigley is a fine example, and Benedict Koehler is another.

Sue, as it happens I couldn’t think of anyone other than pipers or fluters, though I have seen Gearoid O hA play the whistle. I’ll listen out for Sean Smyth, Nick. And Tony, I love Martin Hayes’ playing, but what pray has he got to do with the topic?

To sum up on the envelope-pushing point, I think my problem is that I’ve had it with overproduced records of flashy solo whistle playing – most of those I’ve heard recently don’t do anything for me, and I tend to find the arrangements not merely superfluous but intrusive. To find anything else these days you have to go back to recordings of older players such as those on the Totally Traditional Tin Whistles CD, or little snippets of Ennis or Clancy, or people like Mick O’Brien. Or get out to a session and hear people like Debbie Quigley. Yes, that’s my conclusion to the weekend’s cogitation – listen to fewer CDs of whistle players!

Steve

BTW Mark B, I’m not fretting about all this, nor is it stopping me playing. I just like to explore ideas, and I think most of the other people who responded do too.

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“And Tony, I love Martin Hayes’ playing, but what pray has he got to do with the topic?”

A good question. I tend to come at things from oblique angles and often don’t explain what the heck I’m talking about. I was reflecting on the comments about “over the top” playing.

"Many of the other masters could never be thought of as going over the top, so far as I can tell. "

I immediately thought of Martin Hayes as a true master who transcends over-the-topness by playing with the truest sense of the tradition. He’s clearly not attempting to impress with style, but his innate style and power over the music renders the most impressive playing I’ve heard anywhere. Right. He’s not a whistle player. I overlooked that fact. That’s because it’s the music, not the instrument or personality I’m listening for. And Martin Hayes presents, in my cock-sure opinion, the finest, purest expression of traditional Irish music I’ve heard. (As far as whistle players go, Laurence Nugent is one of my favorites. I love his flute playing, too.)
Tony

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As has been mentioned before, I think the tinwhistle in Ireland has always been considered very much a beginner’s instrument. People who might end up being woodwind players would start on the whistle, and if it suited them (and vice versa) they would then “graduate” to flute or pipes. As far as I know, it wasn’t until Mary Bergin that whistles began being seen as a serious instrument. And I imagine that’s the legacy whistles still have: To be a serious musician, you can’t simply be a whistle player, you have to play a “real” instrument.

Of course I don’t agree. :slight_smile: Nevertheless I can see why players would want to “upgrade” their instrument to something else, for instance I do consider flutes capable of a greater range of expression than whistles.

And incidentally I find that I seldom listen to dedicated “whistle CDs”, preferring flutes CDs and CDs with multiple instruments. So while I love to play the whistle, I don’t really care that much for listening to 'em. :slight_smile:

Cheers,
Jens

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On 2001-08-05 22:09, StevieJ wrote:
And I can’t tell you what I meant by “over the top” – because that’s not the expression I used > :smiley: > .

Stevie,

Well GEE WHIZ did I put words in to your mouth and everybody else’s too. I think you probably could guess what COMPLEX catalyst facilitated that little slip up. Ooops.

I’ll try to be a bit more careful in the future.

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Tony,
Is the Martin Hayes you mentioned Martin Hayes from the Chieftains?

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A couple of years ago I was talking to a whistle player from around these parts, meaning she is French-speaking, and she was raving about a fiddle player whose album she’d been listening to. Martinez, his name was. Oh, I said, I’ve never heard of him, thinking, maybe he’s Mexican or something. Does he play Irish music?. Oh yes, she said, you must have heard of him, his name’s Martinez, and he’s really famous.

No, I don’t think so… she kept repeating his name, and then the penny started to drop.

Martinez,
Martinez,
Martinez = Martin Ezz.
Bingo! Martin HHHHayes. I hurt myself laughing at the confusion, and I’ve got good mileage out of the story since.

BTW Ron I think you’re thinking of Martin Fay. Has Mark_J by any chance had you sampling his homebrew? I’ve noticed it induces temporary dyslexia.

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Did I say Martin Hayes? I meant to say Martinez. Actually, it’s Mark Days. Wait a minute, let me check the cd.
Oh, it is Martin Hayes.
Look his name up on amazon or half.com and a bushy-haired guy with a Mona Lisa smile will pop up on your screen. That would be your man. I think his first cd is just called Martin Hayes and has his face big on the cover. Under the Moon is a dark blue cd. No, he was never with the Chieftains, at least not on their recordings that I know of. They’ve played with quite a few performers, so you never know. I hope after pumping him up in my last post you like his playing.
Tony

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you are of course right Steve, I was thinking (or trying to at least) of Martin Fay. I am going senile I think, now where did I put thosr paper dolls I was cutting out?

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Maybe the whistle isn’t regarded as a serious instrument (mostly by musicians who don’t play it) because it is less dependent on the player’s embouchure than most other woodwinds are. Also possibly because it is a melody instrument and not really equipped for playing sharps and flats.

My personal opinion is that the whistle is darn difficult to play well…at least as hard (for different reasons) as more complex instruments.

[ This Message was edited by: paulsdad on 2001-08-09 18:29 ]