More Dutch Plan to Emigrate as Muslim Influx Tips Scales

AMSTERDAM - Paul Hiltemann had already noticed a darkening mood in the Netherlands. He runs an agency for people wanting to emigrate and his client list had surged.

But he was still taken aback in November when a Dutch filmmaker was shot and his throat was slit, execution style, on an Amsterdam street.

In the weeks that followed, Mr. Hiltemann was inundated by e-mail messages and telephone calls. “There was a big panic,” he said, “a flood of people saying they wanted to leave the country.”

Leave this stable and prosperous corner of Europe? Leave this land with its generous social benefits and ample salaries, a place of fine schools, museums, sports grounds and bicycle paths, all set in a lively democracy?

more at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/27/international/europe/27dutch.html?ex=1110171600&en=d6582f891be6b650&ei=5070

I guess every board has it’s resident nazi troll.

Like many of IRTradRU?s previous posts,this stinks.

I work with a huge amount of Muslim guys and find them all very kind and helpful people.Granted ,they have a problem with a small minority of extremists but what race doesn’t. There will always be crazies out there even in the American Right.

I’m sure there are forums out there where this kind of crap is appreciated,this ain’t one of them.

Slan,
D.

Perhaps a letter to the NY Times would help.

I have no idea what readers of the NY Times find acceptable but I do know that around here these views are neither acceptable nor welcome.

This board is a meeting place for a vast mix of people who have hugely different backgrounds and perspectives and I cannot think of one member who would share the views put forward in that article.

Off you go and learn a few nice jigs..good boy.


Slan,
D.

The Netherlands sometimes scare me. I am aware that the Netherlands is probably the most socially and economically liberal country on earth, but despite that fact (or because of it??) they kill living breathing (but very sick babies) there:

BTW, Muslims are not a race, dubhlinn. There are black central African Muslims, Blue-eyed Swedish Muslims, and every color in between. :slight_smile:

You are correct Cran and I apologise for that little mistake. The blood was boiling a bit there and I slipped up on that one, though I’m sure you get my meaning none the less :wink:

Slan,
D.

I think you are overreacting to the post. He was just relaying an article, not being a “Nazi troll.” It’s telling by the comments how uncomfortable some are with this impending reality. And it’s in the NY Times for crynoutloud, not the Neo-Aryan Tribune! The NY Times is the most prominent liberal daily in the country. This is the same paper than, on the American Veteran’s Day holiday, chose to show a suffering Iraqi displaced by the military activities there, rather than the usual experience-hardened vet in his VFW beret!

Given the context of the EU’s economic rise, the article is somewhat of the cloud within the silver lining. I pointed out in another thread, that the rise of economic prominence of the EU and the Euro, combined with the secular humanist philosophy may make Europe a greater target for the jihadists as time goes on. This would most definitely affect life there.

Sure there are “nice” Muslims. But it so happens that the Wahabi style of Islam, mostly emanating from Saudi Arabia, must be confronted unless you want to convert or die from it. I believe it represents from 35-60 million Muslims, according to a recent interview I heard with an author who had written on the subject. This same author emphasized that the van Gogh killing was done by a Dutch-born Muslim, not a foreign terrorist and that each society with a sizable Islamic population will have varying experiences in getting along.

And calling names and shooting the messenger changes nothing.

He was just relaying an article, not being a “Nazi troll.”

That’s one of the ways trolling is done. “Troll” is exactly the correct term for a post like this.

http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=4&tabid=139&itemid=20

Defintion #1

An annoyance usually on Messageboards who posts for the purpose of causing a disturbance. Often by making comments of a slanderous nature, accusatory, or just general pain-in-the-assness.

Defintion #2

An outrageous message posted to a newsgroup or mailing list or message board to bait people to answer. Trolling is a form of harassment that can take over a discussion. Well meaning defenders can create chaos by responding to trolls. The best response is to ignore it. Also, the person who posts such messages.

Definition #3

A term used to define a public message (either on a USENET newsgroup or other public message board on an online service) that is posted for the sole purpose of offending people and/or generating an enormous flood of non-topic replies.

Definition #4

A troublemaker who deliberately posts provocative, hostile or annoying messages in a newsgroup or mailing list with the specific intent of starting a flamewar. The practice is known as trolling.Related terms: Flame, Flamewar, Post, POST, Mailing list, Newsgroup

Definition #5

A troublemaker who deliberately posts provocative, hostile or annoying messages in a newsgroup or mailing list with the specific intent of starting a flamewar. The practice is known as trolling.

Sure there are “nice” Muslims. But it so happens that the Wahabi style of Islam, mostly emanating from Saudi Arabia, must be confronted unless you want to convert or die from it.

This is utter, hate-filled nonsense.

I guess every board has it’s resident nazi troll.



This is utter, hate-filled nonsense.

I agree.

Don’t leave out the crazies in the American Left. That is discrimination… :astonished:

Throwing around words like ‘nazi’ and ‘hate’ and ‘nonsense’ is not a counterargument, it’s a battery of insults, and serves only to lower the tone of the thread and the message board in general, and is, generally speaking, -precisely- the reaction desired by trolls.

Whether he is a troll or not, had anti-islamist motives for the original posting of the link or not, the article itself is not absurd in any way. It describes -events- and peoples -reactions-. It does not endorse those reactions, and it points out that the one murder is virtually the only violence connected to islam in any way in the country. Unless there’s evidence that the murder -didn’t- take place as described, people are -not- talking about leaving the country, or that the article is in some other way inaccurate or leaving out vital, relevant information, then the article isn’t to blame for reporting the truth. If you must place blame, you could blame the dutch people for being intolerant of muslim immigrants, but there’s a strong flavour of irony in doing such a thing.

I guess the emmigration specialist had the some hysteric peope contacting him after the murder of Mr. van Gogh. Sounds VERY similar than the report from the Canadian Immigration website after the re-election of Mr. Bush in November when they had millions of hits and the server broke down. When reading the article the raise in numbers of emmigration sounds tremendous, they do not anymore when you have a more informed picture of the emmigration situation in the Netherlands and then any objectivity or connection of the murder and the growing numbers mentioned in the article blows up in a puff. The Netherlands is the most liberal and tolerant country I know of, still everywhere you find some hysterical people and they usually have a tendency to shout louder than the rest.

Fact is that the Netherlands are one of the most populated countries in Europe, about 400 people live in one square kilometer today. From what I know the dutch government has always had a quite active support policy for emmigrants. The Netherlands always had a growing tendency of emmigration but still due to immigration and birth over death numbers they are growing massively. Basically they cannot get rid of enough people to stop overpopulation. So the growing numbers of emmigration have various reasons and not only the one mentioned in the article. On 01.01.02 it was 16,1 million citizens btw.

1951-1960 10,2 mil 462000 immigrants 629000 emigrants
1961-1970 11,55 mil 689000 immigrants 557000 emigrants
1971-1980 13.12 mil 954000 immigrants 607000 emigrants
1981-1990 14.2 mil 855000 immigrants 586000 emigrants
1991-2000 15,01 mil 1145000 immigrants 792000 emigrants
2001-2010 15864 mil ?? ??


Brigitte

I can remember in the time immediately following the OKC bombings many people assumed that it was done by Mohammedans and were shouting that they shouldn’t be allowed to come into the country. However, I stated that I was opposed to any religious test for immigration. As it turned out, the radicals convicted of that act of terror weren’t even of the religion that people were wanting to bar because of it.

I just hope these Dutch people don’t decide to emigrate to the USA, because we’re not very welcoming right now. :smiling_imp:

Simon, I respectfully disagree. People post things here all the time that are thought-provoking on various topics. This one seemed to really annoy you a lot. Just look at the threads. I mean, the two-headed baby thing, abortion threads, all potentially can bring out virulent feelings in people. I am not sure why this is so much more troublesome.

I felt sorta angry that all the people claimed to want to move to Canada because Bush got elected. It came up here. I know its not a great comparison but I am not going to accuse someone of being a troll just because they posted it.

I guess some of you haven’t looked into the tenets of the Wahabi sect to be so dismissive of my mention.Even Dan Rather talked about it, as well as many other media and politicos after 9/11. I don’t “hate” them but I know that their unreformed belief system poses a threat to my existence as a non-Muslim in their world, that’s all.

Yeah, it’s not like we don’t have enough cheese already.

I’m with Weekenders on this one.

All the way around, I think he’s got it nailed.

Best wishes,
Jerry

I am sorry if my comparison sounded offensive, it was not intented. I should have put a smiley :wink: behind it to make clear it is meant funny. What I wanted to say with it is that out of an actual hysteria you cannot make conclusions of who really emmigrates for exactly that reason. I presume from the millions of hits of people the Canadian Immigration website got only a very little percentage will make that decision for real, same as the numbers of the Netherlands emmigrations in that article do not tell the reasons behind it.

Brigitte