I agree with you that if you go public you should be able to take the heat but the CDs I heard bits of that were announced here were really beyond amateurish :roll:
I remember you mentioning the Blasket one and how that went down as a lead balloon, I have never coem across it as far as I know, I imagine it’s in a similar bracket as the CD I just posted about, Around The Hills Of Clare
I think there’s a difference between posting on Clips and actually selling a CD, clips is more or less a showpage for, mostly, learners. And you’d go about giving comment in a different way. During the last discussion on this (after I called Sperpent Bill’s playing ‘wooden’ in the context of his presentation of it as a learning tool) someone gave the example of Avanutria’s posting of The Butterfly which attracted no comment despite being totally devoid of every trace of a clue. that wasa good example of being polite.
Peter, you know that I respect your opinions – I’ve told you that several times in the past. But, I think there is a lot that an honest comment can add for someone where it may appear obvious to you. I’m talking about the “it sucks” comments that tend to be dished out by many when someone posts a tune. Of course, anyone can say that about anything. The person doesn’t even need to know anything about the subject and certainly isn’t risking showing that they know little by keeping the comments vague, and the person being criticized certainly hasn’t learned anything about where their playing needs to improve. I suppose for me the word “honest” involves providing reasons behind the judgement to help the person improve. If the commenter has no interest in helping the person improve, then why post the comment? And if they have no interest in helping people learn then why do they belong to the forum?
My comments above aren’t directed at you. I posted a couple of airs on Clips 'n Snips and was surprised when someone sent me an email – I wasn’t expecting to hear anything. All the e-mail said was, “They suck!” I didn’t recognize the sender’s name as being anyone on the board. Anyway, that comment was obviously a big help – I have no idea what the person was referring to – although I imagine it’s my playing and not the tunes I tried to play. Because he didn’t bother to substantiate his criticism, I just chalked it up to a “crank” e-mail that means nothing. As a fairly new player it would have been helpful if he had said why he felt this way. So I certainly didn’t get anything out of his comment.
Will O’Ban
PS: Sorry, all for the rambling, but the brain’s not working so well today.
Will, I think we all agree that Clip and Snip recordings are not commercial and are really a showcase for board members at all stages of maturity. That’s still a kind of ‘publication’. I’d feel uneasy commenting publically in any adverse way on anything that was there, but, if put on the spot, I’d have to be honest. I’d certainly try to be constructive though.
But once you decide to sell CDs and to enter the market, you are fair game for review anywhere. A magazine is perfectly within their rights to pick up one of our privately released CDs, pay for it, and then mock it in a widely distributed forum. It isn’t going to happen, but it could.
I think that’s obviously bad manners, superfluous, and dumb. To my mind the whole purpose of clips & snips is that it provides a place where you can share your stuff even though it’s in some way limited, even though it sucks. That’s why I have a couple of clips on clips & snips but no plans to cut a CD. The only issue arises when people recommend clips & snips to beginners as models. Obviously beginners should listen to Seamus Ennis, Liam O’Flynn, or Mick O’Brien and not Bloomfield when they are trying to learn the music.
I read this board a lot. Perhaps I have avoided those threads, but I can’t remember much interesting discussion on music CDs. I do remember the heated flame war over a review of Talbert St. Claire’s CD, and a lot of suggestions for Joannie Madden when she asked for ideas on her next release, and a modicum of excitement when a big name puts out a new CD. Other than that the discussions tend to be drop off the front page quickly.
The most supportive threads seem to be when someone asks for help on an off-topic subject such as computers, taxes, personal situations and the like.
Part of it is a numbers game–there was that recent thread on how many people still play their whistles. A large number of frequent readers and posters don’t play. Some have never played at anything more than novice level and have shelved their instruments but still “hang out” here. The majority may play, but are not proficient enough to have anything constructive to offer someone who has put out their own CD. The small percentage of regular readers and posters that are professional level performers would be foolish to say something negative about a colleague’s work. There is nothing personal going on.
You mention supportive discussion. You might see more of that (and I have seen some), if the artist brings the board in on the decision making process. Decisions such as tune selection, arrangements, cover art have potential for constructive conversation. As opposed to, here is the new CD. At that point, unless it is amazing stuff, there is not that much to say, other than polite compliments.
I have a CD for sale, and 4 people from this board have bought it (i checked). It’s called Wellsprings and was done on metal flute. I’m more or less immune to criticism about it because it’s old, i can always say i play better now (which is true in some ways and untrue in others). But i react strongly if someone makes a flppant comment about it in jest without first listening, because i really hope some people will listen to that stuff i recorded. I’m not making any money from it, but i think the music has some merit, and i want to share it. Believe me, i’m painfully aware of every mistake i made in that recording. Recording is so hard and the expectations are so high. But a few people have listened to it and have said they liked it, so it’s there.
I think there is a place for music that is played “well enough”, but without the level of production of one of the big acts. I personally would rather listen to a CD by someone i know than buy the latest U2 release, for example (just to use a band that i actually like). But money and time are short right now, and there is so much out there that just must be listened to, that in the end there are very few opportunities to buy CDs from board members. I suspect this is why most people don’t buy. A lot of people listen to the samples in CDBaby, email me “out of the blue” to tell they liked them, and then don’t buy the CD.
I think it’s good to say too, that having your CD on the Internet is a Fine Thing, but the only way for an self-produced musician to sell CDs is to play gigs. I sell ten times more CDs in gigs than i do on CDBaby.
Finally… if anyone really, really wants a copy of Wellsprings but can’t afford it (be honest here), if you send me a PM we can talk about getting you a copy for shipping costs (that would be something like $2 in the us or $5 in Europe). If anyone is interested in exchanging a copy of his or her CD for a copy of Wellsprings, PM me also.
I’ve said this before, in whistle-maker commercial posts, and I’m just repeating it here. When someone posts a commercial thread (and, as we know, they are limited in how often they can post such announcements,) it seems mean and tacky to post negative criticism in that threadunless the seller/musician asked for it.
Obviously, anyone who makes public a product, has to deal with criticism of that product, both good and bad. In an open forum, such as this, people will speak opinions freely–but I repeat that I wish they’d avoid mucking up commercial posts. This is obviously a prejudice not shared by all, but it would seem more polite to me to adhere to this kind of guideline.
I agree that if someone solicits comments/criticism, the truth need not be varnished. (Obviously “you suck” is a bad example of constructive criticism.)
When I had less feel for the culture of C&F, I snarled at Peter for posting what looked to me like a harsh comment–but the truth was the person he was criticizing had asked for feedback.
Classic lesson: don’t pass judgment when you don’t understand the climate enough to know what you’re talking about.
My take is once you put yourself out there, by announcing your CD, posting your clips, or threads pointing to your webpage of clips, you have invited comment. I prefer comment to be respectful. That includes honest: When someone thinks my playing is wobbly, out of tune, phrased poorly, or whatever, and they don’t tell me straight I feel like I am not being taken seriously. Like I am some sort of invalid who can’t handle the truth, or like my need for warm-and-fuzzy is greater than my desire to learn and improve.
I don’t think it’s helpful (or acceptable) to just bash things or to be unnecessarily negative. I think Blackwood’s post is a good example of the kind of criticism I’d like to get: He isn’t all heavy-handed about it, he’s encouraging, and he acknowledges the effort and courage that goes into a project like that. I suspect Lolly Cross will find the post useful, since she has always maintained that it’s okay to play from sheet music, classical musicans do it too, and she’ll find it interesting to hear that someone can tell whether stuff is played off the page just by listening.
It’s said that if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. But I think that applies only to a point. For example when I was new to this here board I listened to recommendations of a tune book. Now I know that this particular tune book sucks and I wish I had stayed away from it. I would have been grateful for someone to chip in and say “I don’t like it for this or that reason.” I can work with that. Everybody being nice and silent is worthless for those in quest of information or trying to learn. The whole point of the chiffboard (except the Pub, I guess) is to get information and to learn, so people withholding their opinions is a bit of a bummer.
This issue isn’t new of course. I suspect that those who tend to argue for being always nice and positive, never mention what needs improvement, actually agree with me here, as you can tell by reading their posts in which they comment not on the playing of others, but on the posts of others.
Give or take a few f’s here or there..I fully understand Peters point, and fully agree.
I would never be rude or offensive to another whistler but sometimes there is a line to be drawn.Sometimes that which assaults ones ear is so bad that you have to stand up and say..NO. This bears no resemblance to anything that ,even by a stretch,could be called Traditional Irish music.Now there are those that would argue that it has all the notes in the right place and all the right chords there as well but theres more to it than that.A lot more.
On a public forum,manners and courtesy are essential.There comes a point though when politeness surrenders to an overwhelming urgency to scream…" This is shite …stop..for f’s sake stop.."
There are times here when I feel like that…the guilty parties are usually very polite and charming people whose postings I enjoy but a lot of them know absolutely Fuck all about playing Irish music…Sweet polite and charming people who I would dearly love to have a drink or three with..providing they left the whistles at home
I’d like to try to understand where everyone is coming from so bear with me. Because I’m seeing good points made that aren’t being backed up.
Peter I’m not trying to flame in spite of past disagreements, I’m just asking.
Giving that I agree with that entirely…
What’s the complaint? Is it simply that it doesn’t sound like ITrad which LC never intended in the first place or is it that it was billed as “Traditional Celtic” which is misleading and contradictory to LC’s post?
That’s pretty easy to understand but then…
I don’t see the constructive element in these posts. If there’s a lack of musicality then why not say where? If it’s not fair to American style then how? American style doesn’t have near the amount of ornamentation as Irish. Or did you mean something else?
And Dub, aren’t you essentially saying “It sucks” without any further comment on why you want to include many f’s?
The only remotely constructive critiques I’ve seen are Peter’s reference to the whistle being out of tune and Blackwood’s comment about the melody lines sounding like they were taken from a book. Yet, while helpful Blackwood doesn’t offer any suggestions about how that could be improved.
If there’s going to be constructive criticism then shouldn’t there be some detail or helpful hints?
Are you saying that because it’s not ITrad it is unskillful or are you saying that it is unskillful regardless of genre?
It seems to me that if someone things a CD or clip is so bad they need to scream and rend their garments they should probably not say anything. If you are going to say, “This makes me want to wear sackcloth” then explain a little about why.
I think we stretched politeness a long way saying nothing in public for a good while. Blackwood gave a carefully worded and appropriate comment which was dismissed by Lolly, it was Lolly’s attitude in her dismissal that made me make the remarks you quoted, as I explained in my post in the other thread. And yes, the gloves came off, I found more intrinsic insult in Lolly’s replies than in any of the comments.
When this issue came up before, I asked someone precisely which American style Bill Whelan (I think) was playing in. (I think it concerned Bill Whelan, but it might have been someone else. My apologies if I got this wrong. The identity doesn’t matter for the point I’m making.) Was it old timey? Country perhaps? Now I know American roots styles pretty intimately and would recognise if told that it was even a fairly obscure regional style. At worst, I’d be able to check.
Of course, it was just Irish music played in a way that was … well … painful. Nobody replied to me since there clearly is no style, Irish or American, in which the Kesh jig is played quite like that. Right, so what then does the denial that it is not ITM come to? What does calling it ‘American’ add when there is no actual American style you would fit it into?
I concluded that calling it ‘American’ was just another way of saying ‘shut up and leave me alone’ which is fine if it’s music for your own pleasure but hardly acceptable when it is music that is in some way ‘published.’
The context of that remark was a response to Blackwood, who felt that Lolly was mislabelling her music. As for it not being fair to the American style, Wombat has made the point already. If I played “in the American style” (whichever one), I’d resent it if it was suggested that being out of tune and sounding wooden was acceptable American-style music.
I don’t see the constructive element in these posts. If there’s a lack of musicality then why not say where?
I think you’re right that there is little constructive criticism here, although there is certainly enough to start working. I for one wasn’t trying to offer any to Lolly, because I take it she doesn’t want it again, and she’s welcome to it anytime she expresses an interest in it. What you have to realize is that there is a history here, and that we’ve been through this before and that the general feel on the board was, in essence, that it is more acceptable to charge people $10 (or whatever) for a CD of bad music than it is to say on chiff & fipple that “this is bad music.”
