…Is it better to keep the embouchure of the flute in line with the finger holes, or is it better
to keep it rotated a bit counter clockwise (i.e. more towards the lips) ?
I am asking the question because right now, as a perfect novice who barely gets a sound out
of his Irish flute, I don’t see a big difference. But I don’t want to develop a bad habit keeping the
embouchure in the wrong position.
Thank you for your opinions !
Hi Gerardo,
I’ve been playing my Tipple D flute for about 20 months now. I started out with everything “inline” and just tried to hit the sweet spot consistantly and worked on tightening up my air stream and directing it as needed for 2nd octave stuff and worked on loosening my embouchure as needed for jumps down to low D. Long tones is good for this -try 4-5 seconds on each note, & jump around for variety - try to get 3-4 notes w/each breath. Silly but helps me think about tone quality & breath control to stretch it out like that.
I found that as I’ve developed, my embouchure changed and in the last 4-5 months I’ve started to roll the head joint in towards my lower lip more & the “sweet” spot was more down into the hole instead of blowing across the hole. I guess whatever level your at just do what works to get good tone & the rest is incidentals. I think for most folks what you do changes as you progress.
Happy Trails,
Deisman
The far edge of the embouchure hole is in the center of the far half of the finger holes. Don’t know if that makes sense to you. In other words, it’s turned it at about 20° I’d guess. I was at 45°, but turned it back towards the center line as I progressed with my embouchure. I’m fine with it now, and it’s not very critical anymore, I turn it in intuitively.
In other words: there’s no “right” or “wrong”, just find out what works best for you.
I found that headjoint position was a HUGE factor in my playing as a complete beginner, and I fiddled with it constantly. As the months have gone by, however, it’s become much less of an issue.
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Keep the embouchure hole inline with the tone holes.
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Keep all of those holes pointed straight up, as you play.
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Adjust your embouchure, to fit.
I recently took delivery of a “student” flute as made by a well known maker. Unfortunately, its head joint had been permanently fixed in a “turned in” position, such that once I got the flute to play right I found all of the tone holes turned outwards, at an unnatural angle.
I’m more than half tempted to return this flute to its maker, with a request to turn the embouchure hole to an inline position with the tone holes.
IMO, this “fad” of a “turned in” embouchure hole is worthless!
Well, you asked for opinions, and now you have mine.
That’s the Hammy practice flute, am I right?
Grey Larsen advised me to play with the embouchure in line with the holes.
Anyhow that’s what he does
For awhile I rolled it in a bit but as my embouchure improved I found
that I was playing Grey’s way. The chief advantage of rolling
in is that it may get you a harder more edgy sound but I think
once embouchure is strong you get that anyway.
Whatever works for you, anyhow. If you roll in don’t roll
it in very far.
Rolling the head joint inwards is wrong, period.
Not sure where you’re getting the idea that Grey Larsen says not to roll the headjoint inward. I did a workshop with him for a week and don’t remember him ever saying that. He does advocate a standard grip (i.e. non-pipers’) if possible - I was using the pipers’ grip and he offered to “cure” me. I took him up on it.
I quote from his book (“The Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle - page 83”: “Initially, line up the center of the embouchure hole with the line formed by connecting the centers of the six finger holes. Then, offset the center of the embouchure hole a small bit from this line by turning it in toward your mouth. This makes the instrument more comfortable to hold for most people. The maximum embouchure hole offset you will probably want to use can be seen by lining up the far edge of the embouchure hole, i.e. edge that is opposite your lips, with the line formed by connecting the centers of the six finger holes.”
This roll-in is what I use, by the way…
Pat
Hi, Pat,
In regard to an inline arrangement of all of the holes, try this, please.
After lining up all of the holes, lay your lower lip out more laterally, sideways, than you may be accustomed to, while getting the lower lip to “cover” just the right amount of the embouchure hole, and then let the air pressure from your diaphragm “fill out” your upper lip.
With the embouchure hole pointed straight up, moreover, and by using the technique I just mentioned, it’s possible to more than overdrive a flute, any flute, Boehm flute included, and all while remaining in tune.
take the head off of the flute
play it until ya find a place ya like the sound of
–memorize where the hole is in relation to your mouth–
put the flute back together (somewhere near inline, but don’t worry about it)
get the head in the position with yer mouth that you memorized
turn the finger holes up
then ya can look at it and see what ya got
My teacher had me try something similar. Far edge of the embouchure hole lined up with the center of the finger holes. It works well for me.
turning in usually works best for me as well
I play inline.
Mostly because its what I was used to as bohem flooter.
Its also easy to remember where to line the hole.
I think it gives you room to roll in or out but I suppose its all relative.
I get a really good honk and reediness so I don’t think it really matters where you have it turned.
It seems to be what you get used to and how you learn to make the sound you want.
Pick something and be strictly consistent about it seems to be the best approach.
There’s historical evidence for turning a flute’s embouchure inward. I don’t think it’s a “fad” or “worthless”. From Terry’s web site:
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Rocksto_on_holding_the_flute.html
- Authorities for turning the Mouth-hole inwards.
• Quantz. (1752) " In order to hold the flute without affectation, it will be necessary to join its parts together in such a manner that the holes of the second and third joints shall be ranged in a straight line. . . . The head-joint must be so adjusted that the mouth-hole shall be turned inwards, towards the mouth and out of the line of the finger-holes, to an extent equal to the diameter of the hole."
• Devienne. (1795) “If the mouth-hole of the flute be placed in a straight line with the finger-holes, the player will be compelled either to raise his [left] elbow too high, or to lower his head. . . . The mouth-hole should therefore be turned inwards.”
• Devienne’s diagrams show the mouth-hole so turned, but only to half the extent recommended by Quantz.
• Berbiguier (1820 circa) makes no remarks on the adjustment of the head-joint, but his diagrams show the mouth-hole turned considerably inwards.
• Drouet. (1827) “The mouth-hole should be turned more inwards than the finger-holes.” In the English edition of Drouet’s book (1830): the head-joint is directed to be “turned inwards so far that the outward edge of the embouchure is very nearly in a line with the centre of the first hole of the left hand.”
• Dressler. (1828): “The Embouchure. . . [should be] inclined inwards a little, so that the line passing through the centres of the finger-holes may touch the outward edge of the embouchure.‘’
• Lindsay. (1828) “The first masters of the day recommend the mouth-hole to be turned inwards to nearly the extent of its own diameter.”
• Tulou. (1835 circa) … The mouth-hole should be turned so that its outer edge may be in a line with the centres of the finger-holes” (que le bord exterieur soit sur la ligne qui partage les trous).
• Nickolson (1836) gives no directions in words for the adjustment of the head-joint, but his diagrams show that he adopted the method of Quantz.
Coche (1838) gives directions which, though differently expressed from those of Drouet and Tulou, have virtually the same meaning.
Try both to see which works best for you, each flute will be different.
As will be every lip put to them.
Best for me, too. Fig. 3.7 (Page 55) of Hammy’s book.
Kevin Krell
In the later 1860’s, the Lot musical instrument making family of France perfected Boehm’s flute, and not so many years later came the legendary French School, of Western Art music. It was the French School, moreover, which perfected flute performance, and to this day the lessons of the French School remain at the root of classical flute training. For instance, let me mention the well known names of Taffanel and Gaubert, Marcel Moyse, and my favorite, Fernand Gillet.
To the point, turning a head joint inwards only limits a flute’s potential.
I thought we are talking about Irish style flutes here on this forum, which have usually smaller elliptical cut embouchures. I don’t see the relevance of French School classical flute teaching in this respect.
I personally prefer lining up the emb-hole far edge with the center line of tone holes. As beginner I played for years with an inline emb-hole, but now I enjoy a much relaxed arm position with the slight turning inwards of the emb-hole.
~Hans
I’m with Tjones, Denny and Hans et al on this one. There is no single “correct” way applicable to all, but a method to determine what works best for the individual in achieving what he is seeking to achieve. You need to be comfortable and as little stressed posturally as possible (viz the antique authorities that have been quoted). I’d go with making sure your 6 open tone-holes are pointing straight up, then experiment to see where you need to rotate the head-joint to to get the embouchure hole under your lip at the angle you want and to the extent of coverage that you want to generate the kind of tone and intonation you seek. The modern French School classical approach is unlikely to achieve a C19th English School or ITM kind of tone, though its general flexibility may be advantageous as Cork asserts. One suspects that Nicholson and others might well have said, “Very pretty, but it doesn’t sound like a flute”! Certainly that was the objection of many in both England and the German speaking countries to the Boehm flute. The “perfection” of the French version of the Boehm flute and the way to play it is as debatable as any other matter in the Arts! Be suspicious of anyone who tells you there is only one “right” way to do something! (But do listen and check out for yourself the supposed advantages.)
FWIW, the all-platter-keys of the Boehm flute affect the way the hands and arms come to the flute, so one might find aligning the centre of the embouchure with the centres of the main range of keys has a different effect posturally to aligning the centre of the embouchure of a Simple System flute with the centres of the main range of tone-holes. That said, when I first played flute and only Boehm, I found for comfort that I turned the embouchure in very slightly… but then, I never had many lessons or progressed to any significant level of classical competence upon it. Jimmy Galway’s YouTube videos may prove instructive here - he advocates covering rather more of the hole with the lower lip than many do, certainly the orthodox French School: but then, in some respects his tone is more robust than the orthodox French sound and probably reflects his Ulster band heritage in harking back to the C19th English sound, although his training was entirely in the mainstream modern classical style. I can’t remember if those videos include any flute assembly instruction from him.
Over my years of playing I have used various more or less rolled in and covered embouchures - it’s a lifelong quest of frustrations and gains and new frustrations. Currently I tend to turn in slightly more than I have at other times, but not as far as the most inturned position I have used. I tend to set my flute up so that the front edge of the embouchure is roughly 1/4 of the way back across the width of the C# tonehole and then adjust it in or out upon playing if it isn’t feeling just right. If I pick up a Boehm flute and play it with my Simple System embouchure, it is usually not possible to tune the instrument up sharp enough to reach A=440 - covering more of the hole flattens the playing pitch. I make a darn good honk on one, though! I wonder if this phenomenon lies behind the recent strange American tendency to want Boehm flutes tuned to A=442 despite 440 being the orchestral standard… are they turning them in more to get more of a honk and having to compensate for the flattening?
Also FWIW, I would say that the vast majority of ITM players I have observed turn their embouchure in to some extent…there must be a reason for that: but you need to find your own best position, and expect it to change over time.
Do you hear me chiming in on this discussion. No, you don’t! Two lines is not a chime; it is merely a peep, and certainly not a honk.