A radical view ... turn the embouchure OUT ...

Irish Flute
1

I write this with some trepidation, for a number of reasons:

1 I’ve been playing flute just over a year, and am very much a newbie. Can’t play for toffee, really;
2 It seems to go against what a lot of people here who CAN play flute are saying;
3 The subject is discussed a lot here, as it naturally would be. Nevertheless, I haven’t seen a thread with a direct binary approach to this subject (ie do it this way or that way); and
4 Two very good friends (Troy and Hammond) will probably arrive shortly and beat me round the head for even thinking it.

Anny-hoo … here goes …

Terry’s recent threads - and others - tell me to play deep into the flute. I agree - much better tone when you do. Particularly if I can extend that 5 minutes per day that I manage to get a more focussed tone. However, I don’t necessarily read into what Terry says that one should turn the embouchure in. Perhaps I’m being stupid in not reading that into it, but there you go. Some of the very best flute players I know - including two who live within 30 miles of me, and one who taught at the summer school I went to in Ireland last year - turn the embouchure out. Not much, but definitely out.

I had been developing an embouchure based on turning the head in, for ages. About 5 weeks ago, I changed abruptly (I admit - it was after advice from a Boehm flute teacher) to turning the head out. My tone improved immediately. Interestingly, my pitch did not rise when I did this. Actually, I now play with better pitch and intonation than before. Note that I still think (I could be wrong, of course) that I’m blowing down into the flute. It’s just that I’m using my lips to do this, not just turning the head in.

What do I want to know? Well, any thoughts, anyone? Am I irreparably damaging my flute tone? Am I onto something? Or is it just horses for courses, and whatever works for me?

2

I’ve been playing flute just over a year

I’d say, keep the emb in line with the holes, and practice for another 1-2 years, and then try again both approaches…

3

Well, he needs a good skull-bashing anyway… :smiley:

Actually, I think the whole rolled out v rolled in thing is not functional as a debate without some clarification of parameters.

First there is the relationship between the embouchure hole and main line(s) of tone-holes rotationally with respect to the long axis of the flute, with an assumption that the main spine-line of the 6 open holes is the reference datum. (This is what we seem usually to refer to when talking “rolled in or out”, I think.)
i.e. How the flute is assembled.

Then there is the relationship between that spine-line and how you actually hold the flute - is the spine-line actually at the 12-o-clock position seen end-on when you are in your accustomed playing posture? We tend to assume that, but it ain’t necessarily so.
i.e. Playing posture - the flute as held up to play.

And lastly, in part (but not entirely) resulting from how you personally set the variables in the first two points above, comes the issue of how you address your face to the head-joint - where on the lip do you place the back edge of the embouchure hole, how much of the hole do you cover with your lower lip, what angle is there between an imaginary axial line through the embouchure chimney (perpendicular to the long axis of the flute) and the main plane of your face or absolute environmental vertical? Individual facial physiology and embouchure technique are further variables here.

e.g. an imaginary player who puts the flute-head to his face with the embouchure hole well tipped in towards the face - say with that chimney imaginary axis line at about 30 degrees from external vertical, and who covers nearly half the hole with the lower lip, may yet have the centre of the embouchure hole on the same spine-line as the tone-holes because of a hand/arm posture with a dipped R wrist and the L fingers coming in arched over the flute, i.e. with the spine-line not at 12-o-clock, more like 10-o-clock as viewed from the foot end. This would have the same embouchure result as someone who holds the flute with the main spine-line at 12-o-clock but sets the flute up with the embouchure hole turned inward so that the far edge of it is on the spine-line… Which of these players is playing with a “rolled in embouchure”? Another player may hold the flute such that the embouchure axis is vertical and the tone-hole spine-line is rolled away from his body, arching the R wrist and fingers, dipping the L wrist, but dip his head and still cover as much as half of the embouchure hole with his lip and have a very protruded upper lip… this player we might describe as playing “rolled out”, yet s/he would actually have no more “open” an embouchure than the others - certainly not necessarily a (stereotypically perceived) French school Bohm embouchure.

Also e.g. Ben, I know, has been adopting a Nicholsonesque approach with the R hand holes turned somewhat out from the notional spine-line, and I’d guess from his description above, with the centre of the embouchure near enough on their spine-line, not that of the L hand holes. But how then is he holding the flute? Are the R hand holes at 12-o-clock, or the L hand ones, or neither?

I’d say also that it would be instructive here to review the oft-referred to James Galway embouchure YouTube clips - that one where he shows the grease-mark of his lips on the lip-plate…

4

  1. If you really DO blow into the flute, you won’t get any tone at all. It is more a matter of thinking of blowing into it.

  2. Turn the embouchure hole where you need it. There are no rules. I also know two players who, for my understanding, turn the head out - after asking them why they do it, they both asked me “out? I think it’s pretty much turned in!” But I couldn’t hardly play, since I hold the flute in another way - for them, it was just right and easy to “blow into” the flute. Maybe you just found the right degree of “turning in” by turning the head out.

That’s basically what Jem wrote, but I decided to write it again from my point of view.

Happy turning!

5

If it is what Jem wrote, Gabriel, I got something different from it. And very pleased to hear both comments. At my stage, every comment like this helps.

6

At Tional workshops both Catherine McEvoy and Grey Larsen told us to line the blow hole up with
the finger holes. That’s what I do.

7

bit like “set the cork one diameter back from the center of the embouchure hole”, innit?

hard to go wrong as a starting place, an’ if you’ve no clue it’ll do ya 'till ya do.

8

Nice start! The rest was painful. :really:

Not that I disagree. :wink:

9

I was going to “report back” in the other thread about getting a reedy dark tone. I have been playing my flute with the embouchure hole in line with the tone holes all straight. I decided to turn it (per Terry’s Nicholsen excerpts) 1/4 a way in so the edge of the embouchure hole was on the center line of the tone holes.

Didn’t like it but realized I’d have to play with it a while. What I found I liked about it was that I did get more consistent tone in the lower register after I got used to it. What I didn’t like about it was that my upper notes lost their ethereal quality. That is perhaps the correct sound for ITRAD :slight_smile: But I liked those upper notes.

Now I’m working with an 1/8 turn in. It’s a pretty good balance for me. I find I do have to keep my embouchure (lips) more focused and pointed more downward but I’m liking that I seem to have more air reserves since it takes less to get good tone.

10

Setting up the flute with the embouchure rolled in or out relative to the tone holes does not seem to have much affect on my tone. I think this is because I tend to rotate the whole flute into a position that gives the best tone (according to my ear) with a comfortable head position. Consequently, the thing that changes between rolled in and rolled out set ups is really just my elbow and wrist position. Similarly for flutes with separate R and L hand mid sections where you can roll one section in and the other out to affect hand positions independently of each other. So I think the choice of whether to roll the head joint in or out is quite independent from the choice of whether to direct the air flow across or downwards.

Jon

11

Good move (blaming the Boehm flute teacher)! :thumbsup:

Saves ya explaining time machine to France in the 1970s weekend, dunnit.

12

Well, this is interesting. I thought people would be more wedded to one approach or the other. It seems to me that maybe people are more open-minded about it than I’d thought. :slight_smile:

13

Not just open-minded, but positively vacuous, Ben!

It’s interesting that back in the late 18th century, Gunn recommended in-line, but only 25 or so years later, Nicholson recommended turning in. Both going for the blowing down approach. One reader suggested to me that it made sense in that Gunn’s flute (pre Nicholson) would have had smaller embouchure and finger holes than Nicholson’s monster, so that turning in Gunn’s flute might have smothered it. Turning in will give darker, out brighter, all other things being equal. Out should give more power. In too far might smother the flute or induce instabilities in some notes.

Consider too that in, if blowing towards the edge, will shorten the jet length, possibly to the extent that the low notes will only be available at low level. Turning out might make it harder to blow downward successfully.

I think one of our recent (but perhaps not adequately discussed) mental breakthroughs is to see that reediness and darkness are not necessarily intertwined, and that both of them are spectral (i.e. variable over a range). You should be able to dial-up independently the degree of reediness and the degree of darkness you prefer. Or the range of those characteristics you wish to indulge in.

Terry

14

Sunday, innit…

The trad police will be in tomorrow morning :smiling_imp:

15

Starting out on the fife, I don’t think I’ll ever get away from lining up the embouchure with the tone holes.

16

Sucks to you to, Mr McGee! :smiley:

17

People here and elsewhere are always talking about turning the head joint in or out relative to the finger holes as if it’s a way to make your tone or your intonation good or bad, or better or worse. But that kind of thinking is backwards. The lining up of the embouchure hole with the finger holes does not do anything to change the sound of the flute. What changes the sound of the flute is how the lips approach the embouchure hole, i.e. how the rubber meets the road. So the proper approach toward deciding whether to line up the holes or to roll the head joint in or out relative to the finger holes is to first find the optimum lip-embouchure hole alignment for getiing the sound you want. This can be accomplished with the head joint lined up, rolled in or rolled out. It doesn’t matter. That’s why most players start with the holes lined up, because that’s easiest to reproduce every time you reassemble the flute. Once you learn and can consistently reproduce the proper lip-embouchure hole alignment every time you pick up the flute, then and only then would it make sense to roll the head joint in or out with respect to the finger holes, if you find that your current lineup is causing you some ergonomic issues. Otherwise, if you’re still trying to hone in on the proper lip-embouchure hole alignment you’re just going to mess up that learning process if you start screwing around with how you line up the holes.