On 2002-10-10 07:54, chas wrote:
I’m still not of the opinion that chiff in a whistle can be equated with chiff in an organ because of the way the whistle is played. I think of it more as a raspy sound or something. Given that caveat, let me be the first to respond. I’ll do these on a six-point scale with six being the most chiff, only because it’s convenient:
The breathy sound of Shaws and Clarkes is something I can’t really compare to other whistles.
Some of these I’ve only played in keys other than D (Overton low-D and -G, Harper G and A, I only own Gens in other keys).
It’s also important to point out that most of these are handmade instruments and will vary somewhat, and I’m sure the sound of the injection-molded ones will vary with tweaking, etc.
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Pretty well agree with this Chas, though I wouldn’t put Overton top of the chiff league - more halfway for me. The Clarke has to be No.6 for me (which is probably why I never play it).
I first learned of the term many years ago (before C&F existed, AFAIK) when I got the Bill Ochs tutor. Chiff is evidently something the Clarke company is quite proud of.
On 2002-10-11 04:16, Jens_Hoppe wrote:
One problem with accepting the pipe organ definition outright, is that it might not be terribly applicable to tinwhistles. With whistles, we need a term to identify the amount of white noise and the complexity of the tone of each note.
This isn’t so much a problem with the word ‘chiff’. It’s more of a problem with the whistles having other characteristics we’d like to talk about without having a simple commonly-agreed upon term for them --though “white noise”, “overtones” and the like seem to work just fine.
For those who get lots of “pipe organ chiff” (ie. scratchy noises at the beginning of each note) in their whistle playing, I suggest you work a bit on your breath control. >
I know this was a bit tounge-in-cheek, but a lot of whistles are chiffy without breath control problems. On these whistles, the more you tongue, the more chiff you get. Likewise, the more attack you give a note, the more chiff you get. You aren’t likely to get chiff in front of notes that are strung together all legato-like. This can be heard pretty clearly in the Bill Ochs tutor..he definitely has a ch-ch-chiffy whistle
I first learned of the term many years ago (before C&F existed, AFAIK) when I got the Bill Ochs tutor. Chiff is evidently something the Clarke company is quite proud of.
Possible, though I NEVER heard it used by any whistleplayer except you guys. But then, I lead a sheltered life.
I agree completely with those that define chiff as the organ pipe people do - the attack noise. I disagree completely with those that think that somehow a whistle is different than an organ pipe (but respect their right to do so). Yea, a whistle has holes in it. Yea, a whistle player doesn’t attack every note. Yea, a whistle has ugly diamonds painted on it. But the mechanism for producing sound is exactly the same. The biggest difference between a pipe and a whistle is scale (one’s big, the other’s not).
In one of the earlier threads, I suggested three terms, and to save you all the trouble, I’ll do it again. Chiff - attack noise. Purity - lack of extraneous white noise. Timbre - balance between overtones. So, a whistle that “shrieks” does not necessarily have chiff, but bad timbre. A “breathy” whistle (like a Clarke) bad purity, though some people like that.
6. Clarke: wimpy wispy chiff
6. Reyburn: Lots of great strong chiff
5. Overton: Not sure if it’s real chiff or overtones but it’s rough and I like it.
4. Clare
4. Meg
3.5 Water weasel: PVC chiff, which is different, and better, than metal chiff.
Tweaked Clarke by the whistle shop
Dixon: slight PVC chiff
Sindt
Thin Weasel: Slight Wooden chiff, which is the best chiff of all!
Burke Al-pro sesson.
Susato: Slight PVC sound but not chiff. (does the buzzing in your ears that you get after playing the second octave count as chiff?)
Busman: nearly pure, though I have played Busman’s that would have been 3’s. Either way they are wonderful.
Burke Brass pro-session
Copeland
Rose: Absolutely chiffless…pure as the driven snow! Everything else sounds like a power sander in comparison.
jim stone has given us the most eloquent and basic explanation of all, stating that, in it’s basic form, a tin whistle is a pipe - thus, in whistling, “chiff” is nothing more than the breathy (CH) sound when you attck (start) a note.
It’s all that simple! > > >
Because then we’d have to invent another word for all that other stuff we’ve been confusing with chiff ‘properly so-called’. And let’s face it; deep down we’re just lazy.
[ This Message was edited by: Wombat on 2002-10-11 13:23 ]
Of the ones I’ve played and/or owned:
High end - Copeland lowD lots of chiff, plus a distinctive reedy tone.
Abell high D: the chiffiest high d I own. Someone else said once, that their Abell had no chiff. They musn’t be all the same.
Overton lowF low chiff, but vibrates in a nice buzzy way
Thin Weasel minimal chiff,
O’Riordan high D, both wood and metal: none,
Burke wide bore high D brass: lots
Feadog fair amount
Newer entrants - Cilliain improved: minimal to none,
Busman: minimal to none
I hope that quantifies things adequately for you.
Tony
Tony, my Abell blackwood D has quite a bit of chiff, too. Guess it’s just me, but I find myself preferring different whistles depending upon my moods. A little down? Then I gotta play my Abell!
As an aside, is it Abell (with a short A) or Abell(with a long A)? Just curious…
I thought we had this Chiff thing all worked out a while back. We even have a picture of chiff captured with a spectrum analyser. Here is a link to the thread:
On 2002-10-11 09:55, dkehoe wrote:
I agree completely with those that define chiff as the organ pipe people do - the attack noise. I disagree completely with those that think that somehow a whistle is different than an organ pipe (but respect their right to do so). Yea, a whistle has holes in it. Yea, a whistle player doesn’t attack every note. Yea, a whistle has ugly diamonds painted on it. But the mechanism for producing sound is exactly the same. The biggest difference between a pipe and a whistle is scale (one’s big, the other’s not).
I do respectfully disagree, and only because of the attacking part. I wouldn’t say most whistlers don’t attack every note, I would say they seldom attack a note at all, if you’re talking about tonguing a note. In that case, talking about the chiff of a whistle being the attack of a note is kind of like talking about the chiff of an organ in the third beat of a whole note. Even if you’re talking about whistlers who tongue many or most notes (and I have nothing against that), there are many ways to tongue a note, and not all people do it the same, nor consistently. Whereas, on a particular organ, with particular stops out, the chiff is going to be consistent.
If you’re just talking about the beginning of any particular note, then the chiff has more to do with whether the note is cut, tapped, slurred, tongued, blown right after a breath, or any number of other things.
On 2002-10-11 16:15, vaporlock wrote:
I picture is worth a thousand words.
Especially pictures of certain Italian ex-MPs. Anyone?
Huh?
Tomcat, are you speaking of the low G Hoover? The above picture show all sop D’s. I have a picture of the Hoover low G side by side with a Dixon and Burke, both in low G, if you’d like to see it.
On 2002-10-11 15:42, madguy wrote:
Tony, my Abell blackwood D has quite a bit of chiff, too. Guess it’s just me, but I find myself preferring different whistles depending upon my moods. A little down? Then I gotta play my Abell!
As an aside, is it Abell (with a short A) or Abell(with a long A)? Just curious… >
He inscribes a bell motif on the ring, so I figure his name is pronounced A-bell. Short or long A? No idea. Never thought to ask.
Ah, yes. The tone of the whistle. Mmmmmm…sigh. It has a dark, smoky(?) sound, mysterious and full of soul. It really doesn’t come through on crummy computer mic recordings. I did hear a good recording recently a friend did w/ good mics and I thought, wow, that does sound good. It definitely sounds good in front of your face. For people bummed out because O’Riordan’s are so hard to get: get over it. Get an Abell. Ain’t nothin like it. (They’re not for everyone. There’s a serious player on this board who doesn’t like hers at all. Go figure. And there’s the purist Generation crowd. Don’t mind them.)
Tony
On 2002-10-11 19:36, TonyHiggins wrote:
There’s a serious player on this board who doesn’t like hers at all. Go figure. And there’s the purist Generation crowd. Don’t mind them.)
Tony
Vapor, can you post the picture of the g’s? I’d love to see it . . . Walden, sorry about my earlier post about Hoover’s being left off…i got interupted in the middle of posting and vapor posted the picture during the interim (or at least i think that’s what happened . . . uh, er, it makes a good story)
