Hey all, I’m looking at picking up an older Sindt high D and after reading many reviews and debates of Sindt vs Killarney, I’m none the wiser. Hah. I own a brass Killarney high D and I do like it but it’s definitely not the first whistle in the jar that I grab. I find the tone as sweet as can be but it’s a bit quiet and can be a bit fussy to play (that’s the player not the instrument). Biggest complaint I hear about the sindt is the sharp C nat but it seems a different fingering can tame that. Is there more permanent fix to this issue to allow oxx ooo cross fingering?
Curious what the mob has to say on this. Again, sorry if this horse has been over flogged
I’d add a couple of Sindt-like whistles to the comparison: Lir and Mcneela Wild.
My Killarney Nickel D it’s also not the D whistle I pick the most. I find it a bit shrill in the 2nd register, and upper A and B slightly flat even overblowing. I find that even my Dixon Trad Brass goes better with other instruments in a session despite of being quieter.
Is there more permanent fix to this issue to allow oxx ooo cross fingering?
Common wisdom is to just stick the Sindt head on a Generation or Feadóg tube. On the other hand, with a little bit of flexibility it’s not a big problem to overcome.
I did what Gumby said, when I was playing a Sindt D I was using an old Generation body in it.
Ditto my first Killarney, the tube had obviously been chopped at the bottom and surprise! the bell-note was too sharp.
If you have a tube that you know gives a good scale you can put any head on it, as long as the size fits, which there’s no guarantee because my various old Generations have a number of slightly different tubing sizes.
The other fix- perhaps not permanent- is to put a bit of tape on Hole 1.
I had to do that on the Susato Low C that I used to have. It was a great player, but for some reason they decided to make Hole 1 too big, which spoiled the crossfingered C natural and also Hole 1’s role as a vent for Middle D.
Not on Hole 1, but here on Hole 2 and Hole 5, the way to instantly transform an Equal Temperament whistle into a Just Intonation whistle:
Do that exact thing to Hole 1 and voila! your C natural crossfingering is lovely.
I own a Killarney and have played a Sindt in the past, and to be honest the easiest “solution” I’ve found to the C natural issue is not really a solution at all: I just alter my fingerings as needed. I’ve found OXXOOO, OXXXOO, OXXXOX, and half-holing all to have their benefits and drawbacks on each flute and whistle I own. Add in OXXXXO and OXOXXX for the second octave C, and there are quite a few to keep track of! However, what works on one instrument in one passage of one tune doesn’t work for another, just like I’ll alternate venting and not venting the second octave D as it suits me. Learning all possible fingerings is a bit more time-consuming than swapping out a body or taping up a hole at first, but it is IMO the best way to go about things in the long run.
Frankly I think it’s a losing battle putting a half inch OD tube on a D whistle to begin with. I didn’t care for any body I put on my Killarney until I made an Eb tube - then it became my favorite whistle for quite a while until I started making my own.
As for the C natural, you of course don’t want something hideously sharp, but there’s really nice tonal character in the forked C natural that’s on your palette of expression. Pushing a Cnat sharp is an expressive decision very common in the Uilleann piping world, and this obsession with a perfectly “in-tune” C natural kind of baffles me. If you can’t move it sharp or flat to suit the tune, you’re knocking a whole color off that metaphorical palette.
I’m a big Sindt cheerleader and have never really noticed the C natural issue. Maybe I and my other Sindt playiing friends just blow to compensate. I have a Copeland too which is always spot on.
I’ve noticed it only because I wanted to. I never quite understood nitpicking tuning on a whistle when the greater part of the repertoire moves along so quickly that minor discrepancies in pitch, combined with breath control fluctuations, get lost in the shuffle, and not ‘overthought’.
Great responses all. Sindt is on its way so I’ll be able to do a back to back comparison with my Killarney and see if I can easily adjust my playing to deal with the C nat. Otherwise I do have other tone bodies that I can try. Can’t wait!!
Late to the part y but I have several killarneys and a Sindt win A and the C nat is only acceptable on the Sindt, for me, via half holing. Its been a while since I played it—I’m all about the flute right now-but while i otherwise loved the tone and playability of the Sindt half holing the C nat crisply at speed was a challenge
What about oxxxxo? Didn’t even that work? Can’t imagine the C nat is that sharp that there isn’t some type of cross-fingering that might work. The “worst” I have to do on some I made myself is oxxxxo but oxxxox works most of the time, especially when it is just a transitional note. Most of the time I use oxxooo and sometimes on the flute oxoxxo or oxoxxx.
I’m not going to employ abnormal fingerings because one particular whistle is oddly made, especially when it’s so easy to bring the pitch of C natural down with tape.
Actually all the various whistles I have now, from high Eb to bass A, from a half-dozen different makers, all play well using normal fingerings.
As pointed about above it can be just a matter of using slightly different breath, though I do want whistles to “go over the break” at an even pressure with everything in tune (B>c>d>e)
To me I want all my whistles to oxx ooo the C nat (or equivalent note for other key whistles). That way practicing one whistle wont mess up my play for another because they use the same fingerings. I made a decent alto A but it needs to oxx xoo, which bugs me because all my new ones are better and use oxx ooo. So I’m need to re make it haha.
In my mind any player of wind instruments plays by ear and uses ear/had/breath coordination vs as an ongoing process that comstantly corrects and adjusts what is going on.
Anyhow, earlier in this thread I said:
with a little bit of flexibility it’s not a big problem to overcome
In the light of several comments complaining about the sharp C I felt I had to test my notion that the Sindt doesn’t present me with a problem in that regard. Playing into a tuner I got a result similar to other whistles I play a Cnat around 25 cents flat of equal temperament, pretty much spot on a C in just intonation that I would also use on the pipes.
I make no conscious effort to achieve this, as far as I am aware.
An interesting observation. I’ve commented in the past (as have others, it’s not an original thought) that through listening and practice you should develop your relative pitch, but not to overthink it. Intonation becomes an unconscious process through practice.
Personally, as a child I don’t think I was aware a cross-fingered C even existed. I just half-holed, and mostly still do. It was only pointed out to me that some people thought what I was doing was odd when I played with another tin whistle player on a recording and she wondered how I was sometimes sliding into or out of a C natural (it was the English tune “Ladies Pleasure”).
Do people shade the top hole? I realised some time ago that on flute I was often holding the pitch of the C natural down by not raising my top finger as much. Haven’t played much whistle recently but I just tried a few tunes where I knew I did it and I’m sure I would do the same without thinking. The C natural pitch issue just goes away - apart from the hard part of getting the aesthetics right.
Intonation becomes an unconscious process through practice.
I think that is pretty much what it is. I remember posting here at some point during the first year with the sindt I was put off a little bit by its equal tempred scale. Some time later I found I had settled into the wistle and had softened some of the notes (notably F and B).
I remember one of the old fiddlers aropund here who maintained all the music and all the tunes were already held within the fiddle, it was your job to ‘bring them out’.
Do people shade the top hole?
Yes, I know I use a fair amount of shading ion several holes to control tone and intonation. I do it extensively on the pipes but have brought it over to the whistle. It has become second nature.
That fiddler quote must have been inspired by Michaelangelo:
The sculpture is already complete within the marble block, before I start my work. It is already there, I just have to chisel away the superfluous material.
