I’m stuck on session 8 of Ryan Duns’ tutorial. At 57 seconds he plays “The Silver Spear”. It sounds like he plays A G F A A A B… But the sheet music associated with the lesson has A G F A A B… Am I hearing him wrong?
Session 8
http://tinwhistler.blogspot.com/2007/11/tin-whistle-week-eight.html
Sheet music for “The Silver Spear”
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_29r2448LnXQ/R0ReoOW2slI/AAAAAAAAAHQ/dLcSpV0qY6M/s1600-h/Reels01.gif
He actually explains that in the video. Hes playing 3 x1/8th noes but its written 1x 1/8th and 1 x1/4.
2nd time round he cuts and taps those three 1/8th notes creating a type of roll.
Thanks for your help! Is this explanation later on in the video or in one of the previous sessions? I’m looking around for it but I’m having trouble locating the section.
2.21 roughly, about breaking up notes and tonguing them. specifically 2.34 but listen again from 2.20
Thanks - Your explanation is a little clearer. One more question if you don’t mind. Are both all of the A’s in this section encompassed in the roll. Or does he roll the first A and play the second?
He is breaking the 1/8 and 1/4 into 3 x1/8 notes separated by 2 grace notes. First though he simply breaks these up by tonguing.
Sorry to butt in, but they are NOT grace notes - cuts and taps (ideally) should only provide a break, not an actual additional tone. (At least according to Grey Larsen!!!)
Pat
Yes, Pat is right. Irish trad musicians generally don’t think or talk in terms of grace notes in dance music - except perhaps to refer to the “little notes” sometimes written on the page. But rolls are usually notated with their own special symbol, in order to avoid implying definite pitches (which grace notes imply).
Mason, you should take a look at Brother Steve’s [u]lessons on rolls[/u] (i.e. standard long rolls), and make sure you understand what they are and how they’re played. Throughout his second time playing the tune, Ryan Duns plays all those A notes as standard 3 beat long rolls - note {cut} note {tap} note.
This is one of the problems with learning from notation - even if it’s provided by the teacher. 
If you just listen and imitate what Ryan is doing, you’re fine. But if you start thinking that what’s on the page is the tune, and Ryan is just executing what’s on the page, then you’re in trouble.
That figure in Silver Spear is usually played as ^F~A3, just as Ryan plays it. But conceptually, what you really have are 4 beats anchored by F# on the 1st beat and A on the 4th beat: F# x x A. That’s the “skeleton” of the figure. What you do with those “x” notes in between is up to you (or up to the setting you’re playing).
If you make both those x’s A notes, then an A roll is the natural way to execute it: ^F~A3 If you make both those X’s F# notes, then an F# roll is the natural thing: ~^F3A. If you make those x’s somethng else, then you have a different variation.
If you listen to my WhistleThis clip, you’ll hear that I deliberately do 3 different things with that figure: 1. ^F~A3 = FAAA 2. ~^F3A = FFFA 3. FAdA.
http://www.whistlethis.com/index.php?content=YkdsemRHVnU%3D&utid=Tnc9PQ%3D%3D
Just for completeness, I should add that some people object to the notation ^F~A3, and prefer to think of it as ^FA~A2 - that is, A followed by a short roll ~A2. The reason is that rolls are usually played only on the strong beats of a reel - beats 1, 3, 5, 7. So when you have a roll starting on beat 2 (as in ^F~A3), you still want to keep the stress on beat 3. Otherwise you produce a kind of syncopation, which may sound odd.
Anyway, hope that helps. The main thing for now is to make sure you understand rolls, and learn to play them consistently.
Pat thats what grace notes are? or are you thinking of a classical term? I wouldnt be too familiar with classical terminology , but as a piper a grace note is a rhythmic device used to accentuate a note and create rhythmic interest and rhythmical patterns. These are 'the little notes ’ that most all pipers use.
I tend towards playing the first 1/8th then breaking the 1/4 into a triplet coming from a banjo/mandolin background this is a typical rhythmical figure but I think the method demonstrated is a good approach to starting rolls.
Ps I had a quick look at your bio pat and I think that we are using the term ‘grace notes’ to mean different things coming from different cultural backgrounds. Would it be fair to think you come from a ‘classical’ background? How do grace notes act in your understanding ? can you link a short piece of music that uses them as per your definition? cheers
MTGuru - Thank you for the detailed response. That helps me get my bearings.
Fiddler:
Yes, I’m from a classical background (not sure what that has to do with it, though). To my knowledge, there are two schools of thought regarding annotating ornaments in Irish music. One is the “grace note” school, which you subscribe to - there is nothing wrong with that, BTW!!! The other is, for lack of a better term, the “Grey Larsen” school. Grey professes that ornaments are non-sounding breaks in the music - i.e. you shouldn’t tap or cut long enough to make an actual, discernible tone. I agree with him. If you see grace notes and play them in this way, it’s really no different.
By the by, I am an American, as is Grey, so preaching to someone in County Clare seems a little presumptuous to me! Feel free to take all my statements for what they are worth…
Pat
The reason I asked is because the understanding of the term ‘grace note’ is the issue, not what we actually do, which seems similar. A ‘classical grace note’ does, I gather, last longer that a typical ‘trad grace note’.
Grace note is an accepted description within the world of Traditional Irish and Scottish Piping. Our definition of grace note does not conform with the classical definition. This is where the discrepancy lies. Which is why I highlighted the cultural aspects of our sub-discussion. Its merely a cultural misunderstanding.
My use and understanding of the term gracenote comes from my background as a piper, yours comes from your background as a Classical player. You simply misunderstood my meaning. These things are only to be expected within an international forum and it behooves us all to express ourselves as clearly as possible and to assume as little as possible from the posts here.
I think its worth pointing out that though these graces dont have an immediately definable pitch, they do have different effects. Each grace note has an effect on the air column and various combinations of graces, as in rolls crans etc do sound/feel differently though its perhaps not obvious at first. These variations, including length give character to the music. A pipers graces will not all be the same length. A short grace will be in the area of 20milliseconds or less , while ‘standard’ graces vary between 30 and 60 ms and sometimes even longer.
. A typical roll, as performed by a master piper might be described as comprising three graces, the first of standard’’ length the second[homenote] longer and the third the shortest depending, as always, on context.
With all due respect to Grey and his work one has to remember that is a primer, an introduction to trad and not to be taken as fully comprehensive .
In classical music, most often (Mozart and Haydn, for example,) a gracenote is a short note that the melody instrument plays starting on the beat. The purpose is to set of a brief moment of dissonance that is resolved when the melody note arrives, so yes, they have to actually sound a pitch, and sound it for long enough for the ear to recognize it for what it is. It might be played as long as an 1/8 note.
In classical music they also have super-short gracenotes, that are generally notated with a slash through the stem. These are more common in more modern music.
In highland piping I’ve looked at how some of the “greats” play gracenotes. The high-g gracenote, which is probably the most used to accent a note, frequently occupies 1500 samples on a CD – about 34 ms if my math is correct. Gordon Duncan, seems to be the exception, occasionally playing g-gracenotes as short as 1000 samples – about 24 ms. But not generally when he played traditional stuff.
Note: I’m not a classical musician, I just read about what they do. In books.