On 2002-10-27 12:22, Peter Laban wrote:
The thing about sight reading is, you come across tunes that live somewhere in your subconcious, often when you go lookign for a particular tune you end up actually learning one from the same page.
Oh yes, I have learned more tunes than I can remember that way!
Peter, although I respect and learn a lot from what you say about not using sheet music, I must say that everyone isn’t as gifted as you and others when it comes to learning by ear. As a musician who had formal training on piano I find sight reading extremely beneficial with the whistle, also. Remember, not all of us choose to nor have the chance to play in sessions! 
Peter, although I respect and learn a lot from what you say about not using sheet music, I must say that everyone isn’t as gifted as you and others when it comes to learning by ear. As a musician who had formal training on piano I find sight reading extremely beneficial with the whistle, also. Remember, not all of us choose to nor have the chance to play in sessions!
Surprisingly, I don’t think Peter has said anything against sight-reading. I can learn only by ear but it has it’s limits for sure.
At a session I once attended there was a person who had a tune book open and was reading all the notes and playing along fine. She was able to play every tune at that session. I on the other hand had been learning by ear and could only play along on 3 of the tunes the whole night.
I have to admit being a little miffed about the hole thing, but now I don’t care…the more power to those who can sight-read.
I still can’t read music but as time goes by I notice I am increasing the speed in which I can pick up a tune. Also as I pick up a basic tune, I am taking embelishments from other tunes I’ve learned and naturally adding them to the new tune.
Most people I know use the term “sight read” to mean the ability to pick up a piece of music you’ve never seen before and play it at proper speed. Following this definition I cannot sight read but I can decipher the code well enough to learn a tune of single notes (no chords).
I think there doesn’t have to be a either/or thing here. It has been demonstrated adequately (for me at least) that IrTrad music can be learned from paper or aurally. I am also satisfied that it’s essential to get into contact with other musicians in sessions to learn those parts of the music that can’t be learned alone with music or CDs. I have been learning with an Irish teacher, from sheet music and recordings provided by the teacher. I rapidly memorize the tunes but it’s nice to have the sheet music to go back to when my memory fails me, which happens a lot recently. I think everybody’s goal is to be able to play spontaneously, without relying on sheet music or recordings to jog one’s memory. I guess that it’s not a black/white either/or my way or the hyway kind of world.
Mike
On 2002-10-27 10:26, peeplj wrote:
[..about his experience with Cooley’s Reel]I am having to go back, phrase at a time, and put the tune back together from scratch, getting the “old tune” out of my head one tone at a time. And it’s much harder than it would have been to work the tune up from scratch if I first saw it at the point I’m at now in my playing.
I think the key phrase is “at the point I’m at now…” Most of us probably do the best job we can at any one time along the curve of mastery. Learning a tune note-for-note may not be the best way for an accomplished musician, but it might be the best someone on the way to mastery can do. If you get what I mean.
– Scott
If there’s one thing that would drive me litterally insane in a session it would be someone who’s playing from sheet music. Geeze, not only won’t you be able to expect much creativity and imagination in their music, but what about these quick eye contacts and funny smiles that make some sessions even more fun. Anyway, I don’t have anything against sheet music, as long as it’s not done in a session.
Related to madguy’s comment, I’m sure that the main problem with sight reading to by-ear playin’ is not about talent, it’s about re-learning something “we know”, but differently. This seems almost like an impossible mission for some people to start learning by ear when they read music, but I’m sure they’re all talentful with playing by ear than many other musicians.
Azlin wrote:
If there’s one thing that would drive me litterally insane in a session it would be someone who’s playing from sheet music. Geeze, not only won’t you be able to expect much creativity and imagination in their music, but what about these quick eye contacts and funny smiles that make some sessions even more fun. Anyway, I don’t have anything against sheet music, as long as it’s not done in a session.
Is no sheet music a norm at most sessions? And who’s to say that someone who uses sheet music won’t be very creative? Are we to be judged on creativity at most sessions? Can anyone really hear anyone else as an individual? I thought each person’s sound blended into the entire group’s sound. JP
Well, again, it’s all a matter of personnal taste. I personally listen to each musician, notice when someone is playing a variation, actually usually smiling of admiration when it happens. I usually know who’s playing what, and would like to play my own tunes always a different way.
Now, if there are people who are good enough to play the music from a sheet, but actually have the time to process what they read and add some variation to their music, that’s just amazing, from my point of view.
On 2002-10-28 19:21, JohnPalmer wrote:
Azlin wrote:If there’s one thing that would drive me litterally insane in a session it would be someone who’s playing from sheet music. Geeze, not only won’t you be able to expect much creativity and imagination in their music, but what about these quick eye contacts and funny smiles that make some sessions even more fun. Anyway, I don’t have anything against sheet music, as long as it’s not done in a session.
Is no sheet music a norm at most sessions? And who’s to say that someone who uses sheet music won’t be very creative? Are we to be judged on creativity at most sessions? Can anyone really hear anyone else as an individual? I thought each person’s sound blended into the entire group’s sound. JP
Yes, there is a norm against sheet music at session. Doesn’t mean you can’t do it: you can do what you want. But you’d be the one doing something unusual that you should discuss with the others at the session first.
Everyone I have ever seen pull out sheet music at a session or a session-like event had not (yet) gone to the trouble to show the music they were attempting to play the respect it deserves by listeninging extensively, reading about it, interesting themselves in the culture that it is part of.
I don’t know if you’ll be judged on creativity at most session; and the sessions I go to tend to be very non-judgmental, or perhaps forgiving. But people will notice your creativity and appreciate it. In my early days (and they are not long ago), and old-timer leaned over to me after I just played Sally Gardens Reel through three times identically (learned from sheet music, btw) and said: “you know, it get’s really nice if you vary it a bit every time around: I like those little differences.”
Yes, they can hear, and they want to hear you, and in my experience they pay attention, too. (Which I take to be a pointer of how I should play & listen in the session, too.) About the sound blending: That only works (in my experience) when everyone hears everyone else, or almost everyone else. When everyone is listening to each other and the tune gels, you can hear it: It is like a lifting, a boost, an exciting rush of energy and life. It doesn’t happen much at the sessions I go to, but when it does it makes all the time spent trying for it so worth it. It’s a drug. I’ve known it happen with pretty rank beginners in the circle (like me, ahem…) but it won’t happen if someone is reading sheet music, I’m sure.
I think sightreading is a great way to learn to play an instrument, and a great skill to have.
Performance and session, though, is not the place I do sightreading.
Also “sightreading,” if you get technical, can only be done once, the very first time you play a tune. It’s never sightreading again after the first time.
Rather or not sheet music has a place at sessions? If it makes the music better, than I have no problem with it. If it interferes, then that’s another story. (Usually, if in interferes, you have a bigger problem with a player than just sheet music, but that’s only my own experience.)
Best,
–James
http://www.flutesite.com
Back to the start of this thread–how long, how hard?–here’s my 2x2.5¢.
I’m self-taught with most I do, and I am generally a slow learner. However, I did learn some methods from teachers. Here’s one sports trick, which works well with me when transposed it to music.
I learnt it in a workshop on mountain-bike trials. Y’know it’s like jumping logs, climbing rocks, etc. without putting a foot down.
When learning a new tricky section (of a trail, or of a tune!), do not overtrain. If you fail an exercise several times in a row, just forget about it and get to do something else. Best is something you master already, and you can always improve.
The reason behind this attitude is that if you overpractice and systematically fail, the more you insist, the more you’re prone to failure : your mind starts to associate this precise exercise with failure = Looser syndrome.
So, after 5 mistakes in a row in the same music passage, play something else for mental relief. Or eat chocolate. The idea is to get some gratification, and not to stop on a failure. Tomorrow you might very well succeed at your first attempt.