The title says it all. Is this a common problem? Are there any exercises I can do to get the rhythm right? Are some reels more prone to ‘hornpiping’?
All help gratefully received.
A sound clip might be helpful. I’m curious to see what you are perceiving as reel and/or hornpipe rhythm. I like reels with a bit of swing. Are you articulating your reels as you would a hornpipe or are you just playing them bouncy?
Hornpipes are slower and accent the second beat (baba-BUM, baba-BUM). Reels are faster and there are no accents except those that are inserted for ornamentation (bababum, bababum). The ryhthm of a hornpipe is at a walking pace; the reel is more like a gallop.
Hope that helps.
Reels are faster and there are no accents except those that are inserted for ornamentation
I don’t believe this to be true of well-played reels
Perhaps I am not being clear. I just listened to your rendition of St. Patrick’s Night and you do not play the kind of accents one hears in a hornpipe. It is a very smooth forward cascade of notes as opposed to the jauntier bounce of a hornpipe.
Either that, or you don’t consider your reel well played. 
I just listened to your rendition of St. Patrick’s Night and you do not play the kind of accents one hears in a hornpipe. It is a very smooth forward cascade of notes as opposed to the jauntier bounce of a hornpipe.
True that it doesn’t have the accents typical of a hornpipe, but it is not a cascade of notes void of any rhythmic accents as your posts suggest a reel should be.
Either that, or you don’t consider your reel well played. >
Not particularly.
Totally agreed with straycat. Also, I would like to hear this hornpipe accent you are talking about where it is on the second beat. That doesn’t sound like what I hear good players doing.
Straycat, your recording of St. Patrick’s night definitely has accenting. It could maybe be cleaner, but it’s not at all what I would call devoid of accent.
What we’re talking about here is what I call, for lack of better knowledge, dotted rhythm; the usual in an Irish hornpipe, if it’s played “swung” (or whatever term you like), is your dotted eighth note followed by an undotted one.
I wouldn’t know for sure, but I’ve been told that it seems to be a US phenomenon to equate dotted rhythm with hornpipes, and vice versa. If you notice, on recordings there are Irish players aplenty who will play hornpipes “straight” (undotted), or maybe with just the slightest hint of a sway. People seem to not remember this, though. It’s an artistic choice; of course for dancers, hornpipes must be played dotted if you want to survive. 
I’ve come to the viewpoint that in ITM terms, playing a hornpipe straight doesn’t make it into a reel. A hornpipe is a hornpipe because of its phrasing. And the same goes for reels: you will hear recordings of reels played with a definite swing, but they’re not now hornpipes for it. Some people will insist that they are, but they’re not. Not really.
I guess it’s not that big a deal saying “reel” or “hornpipe” as shorthand for meaning whether or not the rhythm is dotted, but ultimately that IS misnomering, and I think it sets people up to not hear the real differences between reels and horpipes. I’d love to see people drop the practice.
The editor of the Johnny O’Leary book talks about how Johnny would use hornpipes in place of reels for the dancing, and I guess vice versa. So in some sense hornpipes and reels are also at least partly defined by the dance.
Ah, good point! To be honest, I’d never heard of an Irish player doing that, but if I’ve learned anything, I’ve learned to expect the Irish to do whatever they like.
But come to think of it, if I heard that done, even though it stood in very successfully for a reel, I would still hear a hornpipe in most cases. And I’m talking about tunes I haven’t heard; every now and then someone wants to play this fast straight reel I’ve never heard before, and I hear it and think to myself, “No, not reel. Hornpipe. Sounds good, though.” It’s happened more than once.
Percipient question, Straycat. Assume I am an idiot and draw a thicker line between the two if you could…
I am trying to learn a reel (The Banshee) and while playing thought it sounded like a hornpipe. Now I may be a little sensitive here as my early attempts at playing a reel were likened unfavourably to hornpipes and I was worried that I might be repeating the crime.
Part of the problem is that I have little grasp of the correct terminology to distinguish between the two forms. My primitive understanding is that a hornpipe goes Dum-dee Dum-dee Dum-dee Dum-dee and a reel goes Dum-dee-dee-dee Dum-dee-dee-dee.
If this is correct then what I am doing wrong is drifting into the wrong emphasis(?). I start fine, but I suddenly realise that I have ‘drifted’. Usually when I am enjoying myself. Now this is fine at home (my metronome is very forgiving), but it may not go down well when playing with others…
Does it really matter if it “sounds nice”? I accept that if you play with others there will need to be agreement as to the tempo, phrasing etc so the whole thing doesn’t degenerate into some cacophony of “personal interpretations”, but if played as a solo endeavour, some expression of personal interpretation can be perceived as “artistic” … or a cop-out, if it’s been over-simplified
A delve through the well-known listings of ABC-notation tunes will reveal many with the same name that even have different timings, 3/4, 4/4 etc., for (approximately) the same sequence of notes, let alone differing tempos
… who’s to say which one is “right” 
@Nano: Better ear than most, you have I remember the first time I heard someone do that, and it was with Cronin’s Hornpipe, turned into a reel. I think it usually has more to do with familiarity with one way or the other, as to which you hear. There are hornpipes that are really very definitely hornpipes and it is weird to hear them fast and straight, but there are also lots of hornpipes that are less hornpipey and work fine as reels (and vice versa of course). I can’t recall which, but there’s a hornpipe of Ed Reavy’s that is now pretty well regarded as a reel. There’s also a very common habit of musicians turning flings into reels OR hornpipes. Or single jigs, even. So hornpipes or reels that were originally flings might be more prone to the transition between the two.
@Kypfer: Presumable Phill wants to learn to play the music in an irish traditional style. So the traditional musicians* are the ones who are to say if it is right or not. While there is indeed room for personal interpretation, and there are indeed many different opinions about the various fine details, there are still some basic “ground rules” that must be adhered to if it is to sound “right” (that is, in the style of irish traditional music).
*“Traditional musicians” are those that have been accepted in the tradition, and hence have studied, practiced, worked hard, and fully understand what makes the music right. One you’re at this stage, you can start breaking rules… Many musicians who start in on the “personal interpretation” too early never make it to this stage.
@Phill: The easiest way to learn the difference is to listen a lot. There are some basic guidelines, but playing a reel slowly with swing does not automatically mean it is a hornpipe. Focus on the phrasing and especially matching the phrasing of your source for the tune.
When I first started playing and trying to get the pulse of Jigs,reels etc. , I used sylabels ( sp ? ) of words to get the accents right .. how a word is pronounced.
So …the accents are in capitol letters
For a Reel … ,for one bar of 4/4 time.. GEN-er-RATE-or, GEN-er-RATE-or .. Generator
A Hornpipe .. ,one bar of 4/4 time… WHOOPS-e-DAIS-y , WHOOPS-e-DAIS-y ..Whoopsy Daisy
And a Jig..one bar of 6/8 time… EN-er-gy , EN-er-gy …Energy
A bit ‘out there’ I suppose ,but it worked for me 
There’s also a very common habit of musicians turning flings into reels OR hornpipes. Or single jigs, even. So hornpipes or reels that were originally flings might be more prone to the transition between the two.
I came across an interesting occurrence of that last Saturday night. We were playing in Friel’s, Jackie Daly started Last night’s Fun followed by The Sunny Banks. Which he said was a set old John Kelly used to play. He played them because ‘young’ John Kelly was among the company. Now, The Sunny Banks is a fling turned reel but I was surprised that John continued the set with Mrs Galvin’s (Garraí na Saileoig), which is a fling, occasionally turned hornpipe. And it worked as a set too. We do play our tunes with a well defined pulse here though.
John Kelly’s Concertina Reel and the one after it are another couple reels that could be flings.
Also, my current favourite fling set is that set of single jigs Seamus Ennis played, Ask My Father and The Highlander’s Kneebuckle (not called that of course since Goodman)
So, in Irish terms, what are the characteristics of a fling? That’s definitely still one of the gaps in my understanding.
Phil,
Reading what you’ve described and being familiar myself with the tune you’ve mentioned (but without hearing a sound clip of you playing it), here are my thoughts:
It sounds like you’re playing the tune with the “Dum-dee Dum-dee” pulse you’ve described. I would offer that this doesn’t necessarily make the tune a hornpipe (though some might hear it and say it is suggestive of one). In order for the reel, “The Banshee” to be expressed as a hornpipe I think it would need some intentional structural reworking beyond the dotted or swung rhythm you’re referring to (as I understood it). My guess is that you’re using a common setting from a book or recording and are just unhappy with the way you’re phrasing it.
You’re brief explanation of the rhythmic pulse of reels and hornpipes is basic but it does show enough understanding on your part to generally discern the two rhythms. As has already been mentioned, hornpipes (and reels for that matter) vary wildly in expression even within the tradition. Listen to some of the old 78’s that are online and you’ll see how common it was to play hornpipes pretty straight and up-tempo.
As a simple exercise you might try to play through your tune emphasizing the down beat; that is the first of every four eighth notes. Perhaps that would help you to get closer to your goal. Mind you, this is just an exercise suggestion and I’m not proposing this is how reels should always be played. Some of my favorite players are the ones who do a great job of emphasizing the up and down beats for a lovely and lively lilt to the reel.
Otherwise good post, and I agree, but I will be pedantic and add that the downbeat is actually the first of every eight eighth notes (the first beat of the bar). The phrase “down beat” comes from the conductor of an orchestra… you go down on the first beat when you’re waving the wand!
Technically the first of every four eighth notes would be the strong beats, or more accurately, the strong and the medium beats. This is also useful because you could think of how to emphasize the first beat the most, and then next strong beat a little less, and then back again. Or you could emphasize them both equally strong and get a real strong pulse going. Or you could de-emphasize them and emphasize the off-beats to get a different feel altogether (this is what good Kerry-style polka players do… and not just on polkas, but I feel it’s the most obvious example to hear).
@MTGuru, I’ll pm you.
Thank you, Nico.