How do Chieftain, Overton and MK compare? (clogging/tone)

Whistle
1

I’ve search Chiff & Fipple and looked around some on other sites, but wanted to post some specific questions here.

I’m in the market for a low F tunable whistle. I’m on the waiting list for an MK, but that’s going to be into the fall sometime (October maybe) before that is going to be ready.

The only high end whistles I’ve got that are tunable are Overton A (a Colin Goldie one) and an MK low D. I love the tone on both of them, and like them for different reasons. The Overton has a better sounding C natural I think (with 0XX000 fingering) – clearer. The MK has a great tone, and never clogs, which is a problem with the Overton.

I’m looking at maybe getting a Chieftain V3 Low F Tuneable.

How is the clogging? How about sound/tone compared to either an Overton or MK? Is it worth waiting, to get an MK, or is it worth having three very nice whistles from three different makers? Although I most often pick up the MK, there are times I really prefer the differences of the Overton and play that – due to tone, challenge and feel.

Any thoughts / feedback appreciated!

-Mark

2

The Chieftain will clog.
I have owned all three. Buy the MK and call it a day.

3

IMHO the V3s are probably the least likely to clog.
I can play my V3 Low D from cold with no clogging at all, quite breathy.
my Kerry Pro (best Low I’ve Played) is find once warm, buttery smooth :slight_smile:
My Goldie Low D took ages to warm up and clogged badly,
I still had problems with clogging once warm,
Generally didn’t like its tone, wasn’t my kind of thing so sold it.
Had no experience of the MKs

4

I think both are great whistles. I play Goldie Overtons and have a few of them. IMO the secret with Overtons, other than the actual playing of course, is just getting simple preparation right. Mine almost never clog and only ever have if it was my own fault. Covering the sound hole and 10 - 20 seconds tonguing dry breath strongly through them bring them to temperature every time. Also I keep my whistles completely clean at all times. I put washing up liquid in the airway and run water through it from a mixer tap. I cut old credit cards or plastic door keys to the width of the airway, they are the right thickness, and use that to make sure the airway is 100% clear, leaving nothing for the moisture to cling to. I think it’s fair to say Overtons need a bit more technique than other whistles but they are more than worth it in the end.

5

I have a V3 G and I agree with the other reply that the curved windway of the V3 model resists clogging well. But I have a Kerry Pro F and it is an incredible whistle, very easy to play, great tone. I’m on the road for another week, so I can’t double check the clogging element on the Pro F, if any. But like the Goldies, once warmed up, clogging isn’t much of a problem, imho.
If you opt for the MK, I’d love to hear what you think of it.
Best,
Jaydoc

6

I got my Chieftain low F a couple of days ago, and it plays really well. It plays more like the MK I have then the Overton. I’m still on the waiting list for the MK F, so we’ll see when that comes in which one I keep.

This has led to some heretical musings…

[DISCLAIMER ADDED LATER: The following are some musing that are not meant as a serious analysis of the design of an Overton or any other whistle, but rather some ramblings along the lines of a friendly chat at the pub, with hypothetical musings and questions. Overton’s are great, and Colin’s response below shows A) why he is such a great whistle maker and B) why C&F is such a great forum.]

Now, I know that the Overton’s need all this care/warming/technique, etc., but as I was playing the Chieftain (and the MK) I started wondering. Yes, the Overton has a great sound, but what is up with the clogging and the demanding technique to make it sound good? I enjoy the challenge of the Overton, but isn’t it a flawed design that causes the clogging and need for just-so-warming? I can get it warmed, play it without it sounding bad, etc., and enjoy it a lot. However, if I just want to play some tunes, I almost always grab the Chieftain or the MK, since they are easier to play and I can loose myself in the music easier. What I mean is, with the curved windways of the Chieftain and the MK I don’t run into all the clogging issues, and warming up isn’t a big deal. When I’m performing, I MUCH prefer the MK over the Overton, and I imagine I would with the Chieftain as well – those are just more reliable than the Overton.

As any perusal of the board will show, Overtons are hard to play. Yes, we all enjoy earning our stripes figuring out how to make an Overton sound great, but I wonder if a design flaw has become enshrined in whistle lore, and really it isn’t as good as we all think. I don’t think the design has changed much (although I don’t have an older one to compare it to). What about a redesign with the great sound, but without all the hassles?

Does the emperor have no clothes? Is this heresy for the low whistle faithful? Do I just suck as a whistle player? (well, that last one is easy to answer… :slight_smile: )

What do people think?

-Mark

7

Hi, Mark: Heretical musings, quite… A few key sentences and phrases stand out:

‘Overtons need all this care/warming/technique, etc…’
‘I enjoy the challenge of the Overton, but isn’t it a flawed design…’
‘…those are just more reliable than the Overton.’
‘As any perusal of the board will show, Overtons are hard to play.’
‘What about a redesign with the great sound, but without all the hassles?’

I do not know your experience, Mark. Your 18 postings do not tell me much, except that you have been with C&F for about a year. Who knows… You might have toured on low whistle with Davy, in Riverdance.

However, in my humble opinion, I do not find Overton or Goldie whistles to be any more difficult, in any parameter, than other excellent low whistles. Do Overtons or Goldies require special treatment or technique? No. Are Mischa’s instruments, or Mike Burke’s, etc., any more reliable than Colin’s? Certainly not. I make a significant amount of my living with instruments created by these makers. I depend on them, and they all deliver. Are Overtons hard to play? No. Overtons and Goldies are created in a number of different versions. Colin builds to your preference. If you are used to a low whistle with very little air resistance, and then play a hard-blowing Overton (or vice versa), you may be taken aback, for a bit. This has nothing to do with the Overton being hard to play. Please ensure you are comparing apples with apples, before forming an opinion.

May I completely and respectfully suggest an experiment: First: Please do not make your decisions between your low whistles in haste. A few days of playing an MK or a Goldie, or any other fine low whistle, is not enough time to make an informed choice between them. If you must send one back, and keep only one, please play your choice in many venues - including outdoors, in the wind - for a few years. At the end of that time, play all of the low whistles again for a week - including a Goldie/Overton. I will be interested if the Goldie/Overton has increased in stature, in your mind.

I certainly like my MK… a lot. However, it is not better, in any way, than my Overtons… just different. There are no ‘hassles’ with either of these fine instruments.

Best to you, Mark.
With respect.
Byll

8

Mark good to see you like your new whistle.

I thought it is time to write a little bit as this comes up every now and then and I tend to shake my head. I want to explain a few things about the whistles I make. Yes, I do make whistles that need a bit more warming up than normal and have a good amount of back pressure equally I make whistles that require less warming up and have zero backpressure as well as everything in between. It all depends on what the player wants. People who have bought whistles from me know I guarantee complete satisfaction. Every player can ask what they want in a whistle and when whistles are ready I personally spend time on the phone playing the whistles talking with the person so they get exactly what they are looking for. If someone buys from one of the shops I work with, and can go in and choose in person, they often have a choice on different playabilities if the shop stocks a few whistles in that key. If you order direct from a shop without being able to try it, you will get what is in the parcel. The whistles I make that are made for players or shops do not differ in quality, just to make sure that there is no rumour started now that my instruments sold by shops are of lower quality.

Clogging problems from my experience can result from different things, most of the time it is a dirty windway which causes clogging and a good clean out helps preventing this, especially if it is older or bought second hand; a good clean out can work wonders. People who are new to the instrument tend to like softer blowers as they have yet to develop their breathing techniques and then there are players who just prefer softer blowers and others again have different preferences.

To make a General statement that the Overton design is flawed I cannot take as being a serious opinion or if so to me it shows ignorance.

I would be interested to know how you find my soft blowing whistles in the same key compared to my middle blowing whistles compared to my hard blowing whistles? Did you notice any difference in the warming up time for each whistle? Obviously comparing instruments to each other works only within the same key as comparing one key to another makes no sense.

Different players have different styles of playing and dependent on that style you will find that a soft or hard playing whistle may fit better than the other. Someone who has an expressive style who likes to" kick into the playing " would not like a soft playing instrument as it will keep breaking octave when playing in the lower end of the first octave and likewise a player who likes to blow very soft will definitely clog a hard blowing whistle quickly as well as dropping down to the first octave when wanting to play high up in the second octave. This is the reason why I make such a versatile range of playabilities and I think I am doing a good job. I could just make only easy blowers which will have very little clogging problems but it would not suit a lot of players I make the instruments for. The experienced player generally has no problems at all with clogging when they know how to warm up and warming up a whistle is not a scientific or time consuming thing. Put your finger over the vent, blow hard a couple of times and there you go.

The nice thing about the Overton design is that it allows me to make each whistle completely different to the next if I or the players so desires it.

Cheers
Colin

oh… I am a slow typer…

9

Thanks Byll and Colin! (This is why C&F is such a great board…)

Sorry if my post wasn’t as well worded as it could have been, and I wasn’t serious that it IS “flawed” but wondering aloud. (Once again, the emotional flatness of writing online leads to misunderstanding…) Let me rephrase it.

I totally agree with both of you–cleaned correctly and with good breath control, an Overton sounds great. All I was saying is that there tends to be more of a learning curve with the Overton than two of the other high end whistles I have, and this keeps coming up again and again on C&F. What I was wondering was why this issue keeps coming up–is it something intrinsic to the design, etc. Colin addressed that well – they are more challenging than other whistles, and there is more variation so you have differences in breath control, etc. So it isn’t a flaw, but part of the design.

So let me rephrase my question. What is it about the difference in designs that leads to the response that Overtons are “hard to play” and you tend not to see that with other whistles? I’ve had an Overton (one of yours Colin) for several months, and it took some time to get it sorted, but now that I know the whistle, it warms up easily enough and plays well, as long as I keep it clean, etc. (like you suggested). It has a fantastic tone and lots of room to “push” it as you play. But I’ve not found the others to not be as difficult initially. Does that have to do with the shape of the windway, etc.?

I’ve lurked on C&F for years, and only recently registered and posted a bit, but this keeps coming up. So I was thinking aloud.

I apologize for a poorly worded post – it was not meant as a it was taken, which is my fault for poor wording (or perhaps not enough judicious use of smilies). I’m not about to give up my Overton, and I don’t mean to imply that Colin’s designs are flawed.

-Mark

P.S. I’ve gone back and added a disclaimer/clarification to my post above just to make sure anyone coming across it in a search isn’t misled.

10

Wording and language are important, Mark. Your earlier blanket statements and pronouncements aside, I am still confused about how to answer a question that I do not understand. In your most recent post, you state that, ‘cleaned correctly and with good breath control, an Overton sounds great.’ I agree. However, that statement is true of every quality low whistle on the market.

The term ‘hard to play’ is not a preference, it is a veiled condemnation. I have searched for the ‘hard to play’ references to which you refer, and can find none by any experienced player, meant in a negative way.

Colin’s comments concerning the variations involved in his whistles, were given as an explanation of the fact that he offers precisely what a player wants. If desired, he will build for a player, a truly custom whistle. His explanation was in no way a description of why his whistles could be considered ‘hard to play.’ In fact, his explanation infers quite the contrary.

Please excuse this analogy. It is the best I can offer, late at night: Our oldest son builds cars. I mean that. He builds cars, from frame-off condition, to completion. It is his hobby, and he is very good at it… His knowledge and technical abilities are extensive. His latest project is a 13 year old BMW M3. This is a relatively high performance car. I am convinced that any driver - from a 16 year old novice - to a professional rally driver, can drive this M3. However, only the most experienced and seasoned drivers are going to glean from that automobile, the performance of which it is capable.

A BMW M3 is not ‘hard to drive.’ An inexperienced driver may find it a bit daunting - because of its capabilities, but with familiarity, the quality will show through, in the driving experience. What is it about the design of the M3 - or a Mercedes - or a Ferrari, that makes them superior to my 13 year-old Subaru? They are all more like each other, than they are different. And yet, different they are… just like high-end low whistles.

This is where I am simply incapable of understanding your question, Mark. I will accept responsibility for that failing… mea culpa. You ask what makes Overtons ‘hard to play,’ when in actuality, they are truly not hard to play. I cannot see how Colin can answer that question. It is oxymoronic.

Is an Overton a relatively high performance whistle? Certainly it is. And so is an MK, a Burke Viper, and a host of other fine instruments. Low whistles are surprisingly complex devices. They all have their high and low points. They all have what some may call strengths and weaknesses. I prefer to think of them as differences. These differences make the world of low whistles interesting. For our son, these differences make automobiles interesting.

If you are asking Colin for his design parameters, I understand your question, Mark. However, if you are asking, what particular design parameters of Colin’s, are the cause of some individuals on the internet, commenting on Overton whistles as ‘hard to play,’ I don’t personally think a meaningful answer is possible.

Back in the 1970’s, during the ‘I’m OK, You’re OK’ era, some writer mentioned that the only way to attempt to understand a flower, is to tear off its petals, and look at them under a microscope. Hmmm… Maybe that was not such a good analogy, either…

The very best to you, Mark. You definitely have stirred some waters.
Byll

11

I’ve personally owned all three makes mentioned in the original post, but two of three just didn’t cut it in terms of intonation for me. One of the makers even refused to take a whistle back for adjustment because I had bought it second hand and he was sure that I was not experienced enough to comment on the intonation of his whistles and in any case would not even be prepared to inspect the whistle without charging a fee…

On the opposite end of customer service, you cannot argue with a policy that guarantees complete satisfaction, to the point of playing the individual whistles over the phone for selection, noting individual requirements and making further adjustments - if required - to suit the customer’s needs.

I too battled with clogging for a while, but I find that if I warm up the whistle and use the appropriate amount of breath pressure and diaphragm support, clogging becomes less and less of an issue. The less you worry about clogging and the more you play confidently, the better the situation. Eventually, you will find you don’t need any anti-clogging agents whatsoever…

For me, the Goldie F represents the definitive sound for this particular key. Mine is easy to play, commands great attention in terms of punters taking notice and although an untunable model, offers extremely precise intonation. I also know that, should I ever have any queries or concerns about the instrument, I would feel very comfortable with contacting the maker to seek a resolution.

12

Incidentally, for what it’s worth, I don’t think that the original poster meant to offend or cast aspersions with his thinking aloud.

On the question of clogging, it is true that the designs with very narrow wind ways do require warming up and playing in, but it is this very feature that contributes to the wonderful, reedy tone. This may constitute different challenges for different people. I, for one would far rather contend with these particular quirks than poor intonation, for example.

Who knows… You might have toured on low whistle with Davy, in Riverdance.

I am very aware of the sensitive issues surrounding low whistle design and development, and I’m a proud customer of one particular brand. However, I don’t think it is fair to assume that relatively new board members are out to cause ill will amongst the community or have any links with a certain ‘Davy’, as you mention.

13

Thanks Parkwood – my thinking aloud was just that, and you’ve answered a lot of what I’m trying to understand.

Byll, saying “The term ‘hard to play’ is not a preference, it is a veiled condemnation” is not accurate at all, nor is it a fair characterization of what I wrote in my second post.

I was commenting on the same thing you yourself noted, which is that, over the years, one hears on C&F and elsewhere that Overtons are hard/difficult/challenging to play. You don’t see those same comments as much on other whistles, and I’m just trying to figure out why that is (e.g. windway shape, flat v. curved, narrow v. wide, etc.). I think a meaningful answer should be possible – certain design choices make a difference in how challenging it is to play initially. I’d just like to figure out what those factors are. Parkwood goes a long way towards answering that. Thanks.

-Mark

14

Good morning… My comment concerning Mr. Spillane, of Riverdance fame, was meant with humor, and with respect for both Mark, and Davy, himself. Mr. Spillane introduced the low whistle to a host of individuals who had never seen or heard the instrument… My comment was simply a way of communicating, that I did not know Mark’s experience level, with low whistles.

I agree with Parkwood. Never did I assume that Mark was attempting to cause ill will of any kind. In fact, I personally took responsibility for my inability to understand his question. I have re-read this thread, carefully. I stand by my comments. It appears that my own posts are as misunderstood, as are those, seemingly, of Mark.

Mark: I sincerely hope you get the answers for which you are seeking.

Best to all, on a beautiful day in Pennsylvania.
Byll

15

Over the years many questions on the boards have been repeatedly asked and got repeatedly answered and opinions on whistles have been made by many people on this or also on other boards. Obviously with some questions you get similar or the same answers and often from the same people as it is all about personal experiences, some may be recent experiences and some - especially in regards to the Overton - can be 40+ year old experienes and it would be a surprise if there are not oposing opinions on some instruments as they are totally different in their designs and how they perform.

If you are around the board for a while “you get to know people’s preferences and also sometimes a little bit of their backgrounds” depending how much you follow threads or do a search on the search page of the board or had the chance to meet with them or see them play.

As written in earlier posts in this thread, people have different preferences and if someone who prefers easier blowers had a try on another make of whistle in a particular key that normally does not suit their preferences and during these try-outs also had problems they do not experience with their “prefered whistles” they may say “I tried such and such whistle and they are too hard to play and clog easily” or “I tried such an such metal whistle and therefore I do not like metal whistles at all”. Comments are quickly worded as a General statement which often is alright but depending on the subject a little differentiation would help more, i.e. I normally prefer hard blowers as I also play mouthblown pipes, Sax etc. and this make is too easy or needs too much air for my liking or I prefer easy blowers, am also a flutist or such info and do not like it if I have to push harder and do not mind having to breath a few times more to get air when I play a tune…

Negative things stick much more than positive things and it is statistically proven that someone disappointed talks more often and longer about their disappointment than someone who is happy. So having the impression that it “always” comes up can also result in the fact, that it is repeated by a few people when a related question is asked as of course that is their impression.

I personally cannot see that there are many problems with clogging on the Overton style whistles especially not as most of the instruments Colin made in the last 12 years where chosen by the players themselves and they knew what they are getting.

If you have the chance to try out someones instrument to get an opinion from it, ask if it is a standard design, which depending on the make maybe “always the same” or if is was made to any specifications. If you know you like a particular playing style/breath pressure you can then see if you like a make (if it is always the same) or do not like a make. If it is a maker who does custom design you will know that you do not like this particular player’s instrument in that key but with a sligtly different specification made you may love another one of the same key of that make.

Greetings from Germany
Brigitte

16

Hi Brigitte, yes, the same people do post the same negative stuff all the time, especially about clogging, seemingly totally unaware that it has to do with their technique rather than a ‘flaw’. You only have to watch any well known payer play an Overton. Why do THEIR Overtons not clog up? Also the ‘lot of warming up’ myth. They just don’t, unless it’s incredibly cold. Certainly not indoors anyway. Usually the only low whistles I ever see top players use are Goldie/Overtons, MK’s and occasionally a Burke and there is a very good reason for that.

17

Wenn die Klügeren nachgeben,
regieren die Dummköpfe die Welt.

Was bedeutet “nachgeben” (Auf English bitte)

Danke.

18

nachgeben is “giving way”

Greetings
Brigitte

19

This is an important point. Overtons have been around longer than any other Low Whistles, were made by two different makers, and have been made in a variety of different voicings. Of course there will be some Overtons floating around out there that somebody doesn’t like, because a greater number and variety exist.

Be that as it may, I myself have played a number of Overtons over the years, the first being back around 1980, and for me personally they clog with moisture more rapidly than any other whistle I’ve played. My first teacher back in the late 1970’s played an Overton Low D as his primary instrument and he explained that he had developed the technique of inhaling through the mouthpiece which kept it clear. (I’ve been told that people who play bass recorder do the same.) So yes he could play forever with no problems.

I played a Burke Low D for a few years, and now the MK Low D, and I can play those for hours with no clogging, without the use of special techniques.

20

IGITTIGITT :astonished: When I hear people sucking out their instruments an iceberg slides down my back… :slight_smile:

Blowing hard with the vent closed should do the warming up and as mentioned a clean windway also helps a lot. I have seen stuff come out of whistles you would not want to think that this can be inside of it. Drinking sugary stuff like coke when playing leaves a film inside and builds up over time. nyuk :boggle:

Back in the garden now, wishing you all a nice weekend
Brigitte