How clogged is clogged?

Whistle
1

Clogging due to condensation is a topic that is brought up quite frequently, in one form or another, on this board. However, I get the impression that people have widely varying definitions of how much clogging is “a lot” for a given whistle. So here’s my question:

At what point would you say a whistle cloggs a lot - When you have to stop to clear it after every tune…every other tune…halfway through each tune…once a night? And how much clogging is tolerable in an otherwise good whistle before you decide that whistle really isn’t worth dealing with? And, at what point would you dub a whistle “A clogger”?

For the sake of clarity, let’s say a single “tune” would be your standard Ir trad tune played start to finish, twice through. In fairness to the whistle makers, this test applies only to whistles that have been sufficiently warmed up prior to playing.

Who want’s to jump in on this?

Loren

2

Pre or post Bronnerizing?

3

I consider myself an intermediate whistle player. Early on learning the whistle, I developed the habit of inhaling through the fipple at times during a song to deal with clogging. Then I learned to roll the whistle in my hands like I was trying to start a caveman fire. Now I hold my brass ones close to a heater, getting them almost too hot for my lips, or I sit in bright sunlight in the backyard while playing.

I’ve never had any clogging trouble with my Sweetone or Susatos–just the occasional drool into my low G if I have to concentrate too hard on the notes. I guess thinking too hard makes me salivate!

My problem has been with my Hoovers. Both my traditional and narrow bore sop D Hoovers will clog midtune unless I get them not merely warm but hot first. I don’t want to use the soap or quick dry technique because I can taste it. I am perfectly happy to go to lots of extra trouble to heat up the Hoovers, and keep them heated between tunes because I am so in love with their sweet and delicate sounds, especially the narrow bore, which I find the more expressive. Mack, if you read this, the sounds of your whistles are definitely worth my extra trouble! I told him I switched from tongueing to a guttural stops to keep from flinging spit into the fipple.

I am interested in the clogging experiences of others–I have a variety of whistles on order and it will be a while before my case of WhOA runs its course. At the risk of unknowingly repeating someone in an earlier thread, I suspect that clogging and pretty tone can be a trade-off.

4

I’ve noticed severe clogging *(DSMIV criteria - tightening of the note to strangulation point) on a Dixon fixed high D half way through some short tunes, maybe as soon as 1 minute into the playing time. Either I’m salivating like a pavolivation dog hearing a fire alarm (!) or there is a serious clogging issue here!

Steve :slight_smile:

  • Dale and the other ‘medico’s’ on the board will appreciate, hoepfully, the DSMIV reference.
5

Tyghress, un-treated whistles/windways are what I had in mind.

Loren
P.S. For all you non-Shrinks out there (hee hee, sorry Steve, Dale, I couldn’t resist) DSMIV stands for Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Health Disorders. IV (4) denotes the edition that is most current.

[ This Message was edited by: Loren on 2001-11-29 18:58 ]

6

As an ex-brass player, I want to mention that condensation is a problem common to most wind instruments. I have played trombone, euphonium and tuba, all of which collect moisture and have spit valves built in for voiding it. It is normal to clean the instrument after every tune, and sometimes during a rest within a tune.
It seems to me that clearing a whistle at the end of each tune is not unreasonable. I have three wonderful brass Hoovers, (narrow bore D, large bore D and a Bb), and at room temperature, I can play complete tunes, (often much more) on each of them before having to sling them dry. (I sling them toward my left inner fore-arm to limit damage to my environs.) I warm them before playing by putting the whole end, including the window, in my mouth, covering the holes and blowing until the whistle is warm. I then sling and play. Works for me.

7

Loren,
I wanted to be the first to jump, because most clogging remarks are made about quiet whistles, narrow brass in particular.

My test is three times through “Irish Washerwoman” with lots of tonguing.

Clean with Dawn in hot water, no rinse but a good shake; wipe with a snippet of dryer sheet folded over a thin bamboo splint. It keeps moisture from beading up and blocking the windway—something about reducing surface tension.
Bounce has a smell, but I am used to it, and I can’t really detect much of a taste.

This isn’t an attempt to solve all condensation problems, but to appease quiet whistlers.
Mack

8

Without some sort of soap treatment, most of my whistles are unplayable for me. My Burke narrow and wide bore brass high d’s (especially the narrow bore), the aluminum low g and a, and Copeland low d (brass) all clog to different extents. The Burke narrow bore brass and the low Burkes clog mid tune without the soap. With soap, not that much problem. Same with the low d Copeland. The wide bore Burke is not bad even without soap. The Abell blackwood high d is no problem at all for clogging. Also plastic mouthpiece whistles are no problem, they just drip and soak my pants. I’m convinced this is water condensation, not saliva, based upon the viscosity of the drippings.
Tony

9

Climate seems to make a difference too. At the session in Galveston with the door to the pub open, none of the whistles in my bag are immune from clogging. The loud plastic ones seem to fair best under those conditions.

10

So pleased to see Mack’s recommendation because it has been worrying me but still confused. Where do you find someone called Dawn thin enough (even using hot water ) to wipe out the bore ?

Mack in these cold climates it’s a problem! Warren

11

Gee…
three thoughts never occurred to this old head:
That “Irish Washerwoman” was anything but a tune I learned on the harmonica 50 plus years ago.

That “Dawn” was anything but the dish detergent that “decreases grease”

That “Bounce” was anything but what makes my bath towel soft.

I don’t know how it dawned on me that dawn and bounce would deal with dew, but I always knew that irishwasherwoman clogged my harp…now my whistle.

Hey Warren, good to hear from you again so soon!

12

This time of year as it gets colder, some will notice that metal whistle clog quicker than plastic because the metal gets cold easy.
I recall that Michael Burke has metal whistle that has the entire windway lined with delrin, this would be a bit more resistant to condensation than a a regular metal whistle. But I haven’t seen any of his whistles before to say how they respond.

It is a good practice to warm the fipple to prevent condensation. It is a metal whistle, the whole whistle should be warmed first before tuning.

10 Degrees changes pitch quite a bit.
High whistles a less affected by room temperature because your breath keeps them warm. Low whistles on the other hand are affect by room temperature and your breath temperature - therefore you have to tune them a few times as you play them.

13

Hello,
I have been playing tin whistles and a variety of wooden recorders for several years, and condensation and clogging have been a problem. It was suggested to me to try one of two possible things:

1-Most early music stores that sell wooden wind instruments carry a product called Anti-condense. It is used to coat the airways so that condensation doesn’t have a chance to collect. So far, I’ve only found it online.

2-A more readily available product is called Dr. Bronner’s Magic Soap - peppermint. I have found this in health food stores and at GNC (General Nutrition Centers). For about $7.00, you get a 16 oz. bottle, which should last forever (and there is interestering reading on the label :astonished:) ). Just coat the windways with the soap - I use a pipe cleaner - and let the whistle stand overnight, upside down in a cup. The taste isn’t too bad because it’s mint, and it really has worked for me. I’m now able to play for over 2 hours without slinging more than once!

Hope this helps,
Karen

14

Perhaps a bit of aviation knowledge will help to make this topic a little bit more clear! :smiley:

When you fly, especially in an older, small general aviation aircraft, such as a Cessna 172 or a Piper Arrow, you have to worry about carberator icing. The problem is particularly tough when the temperature-dewpoint spread is less than five degrees.

In short, when the temperature is say 70 degrees, and the humidity is high, and so too then the dewpoint, say 66 degrees, the chance for condensation to collect in the throat of the carb. is very high.

Now, I expect a whistle is something like a carberator too, in that they both create something called the venturi effect. This is simply a drop in air pressure caused by a restriction in the path of a stream of air.

One of the effects of this drop in pressure, is a drop in temperature, and an increase of condensation. Obviously, if the temperature drops too rapidly, and the relative humidity is high (what IS the average relative humidity for the human mouth?!) condensation is the likely result.

When we take a shower, our mirrors fog up, not because the glass is very cold, but because the steam from the shower is quite hot. Pilots sometimes can experience icing conditions, even when the outside temperature exceeds 100 degrees!!!

So, the gist of what I’m trying to say, is that we should all take portable thermometers along to our sessions. We can take our temperature after each tune set, and then warm our whistles to the appropriate levels!


As a nice benefit, we’ll know when we’re catching a cold faster than anyone wlse in the group! :wink:

B~

15

Brian,

You’ve given me an idea - I’ll have Colin add a Carb Heat knob on my next Overton. :slight_smile: Take one off a retired Tomahawk or something. Hmm, maybe install an ELT while I’m at it, a person needs some way to find those whistles when they roll off the table and dissapear on the floor at those crowded sessions…

Loren