I just wanted to say how much I enjoy my Burke whistles.
[ This Message was edited by: blackhawk on 2002-08-24 16:37 ]
[ This Message was edited by: blackhawk on 2002-08-24 21:48 ]
Don’t know what the problem is, but I’ve dealt with Mike quite a few times in the past and found him to be terrific to deal with. I can’t speak for him, but I’ll bet this is some sort of easily explained error, and that he’ll make good on it.
I’m sure Mike will make good on it Paul, and I think Mike makes very fine instruments, however… Mike Burke has been notiously bad (at times) about communications and delivering on time.
In the past I’ve ordered a number of whistles from Mike, and I’ve experienced these problems myself, at least half the times I’ve purchased from him - not a very good record. And I’m not the only one, lot’s of people have complained about Mike’s lack of communication during the 3 years I’ve been on this message board.
It seems like Michael stops by the message board at least once a year to make a public apology, but every year the complaints roll in, and it seems to me he simply hasn’t made any real commitment to lick these customer service problems… It’s hard for me to imagine an excuse for what happened to Blackhawk, he seems to have done everything right, with the multiple phone messages and an e-mail.
It’s a shame, I just specifically recommended buying a Burke Soprano whistle to someone from the message board who contacted me looking for a good instrument, and now I wish I hadn’t. I feel like Mike has gotten enough feeback regarding these issues over the years, but he just doesn’t seem to take it seriously. Some of us have continued to support him, recommending his whistles here on the message board, but after 3 years of on going problems, I’m going to stop - There really are just too many reliable makers out there now, and Mike just doesn’t seem to care enough to get it together. What a shame.
Loren
I too have had delivery problems with Mike. And I am very aware that, in this country at least, “business is business.” However, I have spoken directly with him on numerous occasions over the past year. And have, somewhat painstakingly, managed to acquire several of his fine whistles from him and several others.
All I will say is that, sometimes, there can arise situations and conditions in anyone’s life (certainly my own) that make others question our ways and doubt our integrity.
My own experience of Mike has convinced me of several things: 1. He does make some of the very finest whistles in existence. 2. He has genuinely good intentions, a generous heart, and means harm to no one. 3. I would prefer encourage, rather than criticize, him in both his life and his work. 4. It is, and has been, up to me to decide if his whistles are worth the (often excessive) effort it takes to get them.
I love my whistles - and the humans who create and play them. And, sometimes, I have found myself forgetting (at least for a while) which is actually the more important. Whistles will come and go. But, what I make of, and learn from, having them in my life will likely stay with me forever.
Hi,
I am writing to say that I just saw this thread
and checked my email files and found the letter
that Darvis sent on 8/03 to me. I had been gone that weekend to Dublin,Ohio and when I got home, I apparently missed the letter somehow. I get about 60 pieces of mail a day, most of which are spam, but at least 20 letters are from customers, asking questions, or making an order.
For some reason, I just overlooked this letter, as it was still highlighted as not read. I have a voice mail at my home, and also a backup voice mail at GTE for overflow, but I didn’t get the voice mails he sent either. This is very strange, and I am puzzled by this. None of this matters, though. The only thing that is relevant is that we made mistakes and it is our fault. I have written to Darvis to apologize for our mistakes and to offer to reimburse all the charges from this debacle. It would have been better if it had not happened, but all I can do is to apologize and make it as right as I can.
As to Loren’s comments:
It is true that you have said some nice things about my whistles, and I appreciate it. I am sorry that you have decided that I am no longer worthy of your friendship.
But I think it is unfair to use the few, but I agree, too many complaints that have been made on this forum to damn me as an incompetent and uncaring person that makes mealy mouthed excuses once a year.
We ship an average of 20 whistles a week and get hundreds of letters from customers a year that tell us we are doing a wonderful job making whistles and in our service to past customers. That is about 1000 whistles we will ship this year, and these are not cheap, low quality whistles, but very good ones.
This number of customers should generate not a few complaints in a year, but hundreds of complaints if I am as bad as it appears on this thread, but in fact, over 99% of the time we do a very good job. The last 1% is troubling though, and I regret it, and wish that I didn’t make the mistakes that I made.
I do work a full time job as an engineer in addition to this whistle business, though, and it is a very large workload that I carry. I wonder how many people on this forum start at 6AM and stop working at 10PM, plus all day Saturday and Sunday afternoon? If you do work this much, you know that sometimes you get tired and make mistakes. I am hoping to be able to go full time making whistles in the next few years, and then all my energy will be focused on making whistles and serving my customers. But for family reasons that I won’t share with the general public, I have large financial burdens that I must bear and must continue to try to do both jobs.
It is also our goal to make delivery in a timely manner. We now have 15 models of whistles, including 4 models of D whistles in stock for immediate shipment. Most other premium makers have waiting lists of several months to 4 years. We are doing a good job on delivery most all the time, but cancellations like this cause problems, because of weaknesses in our communications between email and voice mail and ordering and shipping
I plan to institute some changes to get a better communication between email and our order entry and shipping department.
For those, who like Loren, have their minds made up, I can offer no other comment. You know best what you should do and what seems right in your own eyes. To others, I offer my gratitude for your friendship and hearts that love mercy and forgiveness. I need a lot of both and appreciate those who have not lost faith in me.
All the best
Mike
I just got an email from Mike and he’s not only crediting my account, but dropping a check in the mail for the $29 overlimit fee I incurred. I feel lots better now. After the phone calls and the email didn’t work, I had no other way to reach him than this. He’s taking the high road, and taking care of me. I’m all better now and I feel comfortable to do future business with him.
Something to keep in mind is that Song of the Sea often has multiple Burkes in stock, although I didn’t see any brass there. I don’t know whether it’s better from the smith’s point of view to buy directly from him and get him the extra few bucks or from the retail outlet and save him the hassle of one more customer to deal with.
FWIW, I’ve had as good or better an experience with Mike as with several other whistlemakers. I think most of them are a bit stretched, but they do all really try to please the customer.
I really think that if Mike is selling a thousand whistles, which must be well over $100K a year, it would be in his best interest to hire a part-time secretary/man/girl Friday who can call his attention to the important stuff and trash the other stuff. It would allow him to devote more time to whistle making and would provide better service to the customer.
Charlie
Mike,
You can choose to take my comments personally if you like, but that’s up to you. I still think you’re a fine human being, and I said nothing about friendship one way or the other.
In the past I have supported your efforts and I’ve recommended your whistles to people on many occasions. I have sometimes voiced concerns, along with others, but I’ve continued my support regardless.
However, being a former small business owner myself, and having professionally managed a number of retail and service businesses, I have the professional experience to recognize the difference between the occasional mistake and a trend - And you certainly have a trend of customer service problems going.
You may have “made good” on the situation with Darvis, but here’s something you’re probably not aware of: Your mistake in overlooking his e-mail, charging his credit card when you shouldn’t have, and thus causing him to go over his credit limit, has now left a mark on his credit history with his credit card company. You may not think this is a big deal, but having worked for 3 years as a manager for one of the largest credit card issuers in the United States, I can tell you that going over one’s credit limit, even once, can leave a black mark that could eventually lead to: A raise in interest rates on the account (APR), a raise in fees (Past Due, Overlimit, Returned Check), a change in account status - moved from platinum to gold, or gold to standard - or a loss of “benefits” on the account, a change in credit line (to a lower amount). A charge that sends you over the limit just once can also keep you from getting future credit limit increases on your account, and perhaps worst of all, a history the includes having gone over your limit may cause the credit card company to decline your request for additional credit (over your current limit) during a personal emergency - just when you need it most.
Now, just because you reversed the charge, it doesn’t automatically make the Overlimit Fee history go away on the credit card company’s system, it may very well be there for good. My suggestion is that you call Blackhawk’s card issuer, explain that the fault was your own, and request that the (OL) history be removed. Insist that the account be notated to that effect. This doesn’t assure that Blackhawk’s record will stay clean, because some credit card companys computer systems will not allow the Customer Service Reps to make those sort of changes. But you should at least make the attempt.
Anyway, back on topic: Hey, it’s obviously your business to run as you see fit, Mike, and I mean you no harm. However if someone comes to me for advice, and they have problems with you after I’ve pointed them in your direction…well that doesn’t work so well for me, especially when a person can look back through the archives and see that there’s a trend with you.
As far as my mind being made up, well, it took me 3 years (of watching people’s complaints on this board, plus my own experiences) to get to this point… I’d say that’s fairly patient. And I’m certainly willing to change my opinion when the situation warrants.
Seriously though, I can’t imagine my (Change of) opinion is going to hurt your business in any significant way, not with the number of whistles you sell a year.
I do wish you the best of luck Mike, in your personal life, as well as with your business.
All the best,
Loren
Hi again,
Just one more post to answer a couple of comments:
Charlie has made a very good suggestion, that I have begun to implement in the past month. I am shifting more and more of the responsibility of dealing with customers directly with my wife. She handles all order entry and shipping now. I have already begun two weeks ago, the process of getting my website updated and adding a secure server order entry on that updated sight. I will also
be immediately forwarding all email to my wife’s computer so that she gets the email messages directly, instead of relying on me to give her hard copy. We will also, when the secure server is in place, begin to send email confirmations of all orders received by this server to make customers sure that their order was received. I had kept control of the email so that I could keep close personal contact with customers’ questions on technical matters, but I am going to incorporate an FAQ section that should answer most questions, and also we are preparing photographs that will be made available on the new site. This was all planned previous to the incident that caused thread, but I am going to accelerate the email transfer to prevent any future mixups, if possible.
Loren,
You know best your own intentions. Don’t underestimate how much damage you can do me by your comments on my character, though. It is human nature that hundreds of praises can be erased by just a few negative comments. I know that we have done a lot of things right and we do care, but we have made mistakes too. But to say that I don’t care is a little hard. You can evaluate my whistles, but you cannot know how much I care. Your sterling record as a businessman with no customer complaints for all those years is something to be proud of.
Thanks for the information about the consequences of the overcharge. I will pursue this idea and clear Darvis’ credit report. My
call plus the credit we just gave will give clear indication that he has done nothing wrong, and I doubt he will suffer any ill effects in his credit history.
I started this thread, hopefully I can stop it. Mike and I have exchanged several emails this morning, and I realize that my situation is one where things simply fell between the cracks. It happens to the best of us. Mike has credited my account with the $220, dropped a check in the mail for the overlimit fee plus added $5 to cover shipping back to him in case I want to open the box and try out the whistle, then ship it back to him. He has written me a very nice apology, and given me a 20% discount on the next whistle I care to order from him, and offerred to call the credit card company to straighten things out. He has also offerred to send both of my kids to Harvard…okay, I’m lying about that part. Anyway, IMHO, this is customer service beyond all expectation. I feel very badly that I have caused his reputation to suffer. His whistles are great, as we all know, and now we have a great example of his customer service, so I feel we should close the book on this.
[ This Message was edited by: blackhawk on 2002-08-24 13:15 ]
I don’t usually enter these discussions, but see the need here.
My admiration of Burke whistles hasn’t changed, but of the man has increased considerably. The perfect whistle has yet to be made, but there is such a thing as the perfect gentleman. Mike’s close.
Bad credit can be diverted, but reputation isn’t as easily repaired.
Someone said that half of Hoover whistles are out of tune. Someone said that Hoover whistles are inconsistant. Both of those statements are exaggerated and they hurt. I survive. Burkes are neither of the above, and he will more than survive, he’ll thrive.
Thanks, Mike for setting the standard high, and even raising the bar at times.
Thanks Loren, for keeping us on our toes.
Thanks Darvis, for laying it out, then being willing to gather it up again.
I am really encouraged and challenged by this great C&F community!
Mack
[ This Message was edited by: Mack.Hoover on 2002-08-24 14:58 ]
You are always the voice of sanity, Mack.
Sure Mike,
If your business suffers it will be my fault…won’t have anything to do with your missed delivery commitments, unreturned or late e-mail and phone calls, or quality control problems. Nope it’s all because of me… (I appreciated the sarcasm in your last post so much, I thought I’d return the favor. I WAS trying to be kind in my earlier posts.)
Keep laying down the excuses Mike, they’ll no doubt work on some folks who haven’t been around to hear them before. Fact is I’ve heard the “Missing Voice Mail” excuse here on the board before, and I’ve had my messages disappear into your voice mail black hole myself.
Many of us have worked two jobs, many of us have challanges in our personal lives, and I’ve sent you well wishes, both publicly and privately, regarding these issues in the past.
I’ve not engaged in character assasination with my earlier posts, much as you seem to think so. You run a whistle business Mike, this is a forum for discussing such things, and that’s what I commented on - your business.
The fact is, at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter much what your personal issues are: You make a commitment as a businessman to provide a certain level of customer service and product, and if you can’t deliver what you promise, it doesn’t make much difference why you failed. The customer didn’t get what they deserved, because you dropped the ball. And of course I’ve been in that position before, but I always did whatever was necessary to keep the same things from happening again…
I suspect you’re more angry with yourself for letting this happen than you are with me, but it’s easier to direct you anger my way. I’ve re-read my earlier posts, and still think they were pretty mild.
At any rate, you pissed on my last attempt to wish you well, so I won’t bother with that again.
Loren
P.S. I’m confused folks: Are we insignificant, or can we here at C&F cause whistle dynasties to crumble? I wish the whistle makers would all get together on this issue and decide one way or the other…I don’t like being in limbo land 
Back off Loren… you made your point. Things got resolved to everyone’s satisfacion… well, except yours. What’s next… blood??
Back off? What’s that? Someone appoint you Sheriff all of a sudden?
Mike continued the dialong with me and I replied.
Like my opinions or not Tony, you aren’t in a position to shut me up.
Not to mention that jumping into the frey only serves to bump this thread back up to the top, not the best way to let it die, which is what you seem to be looking to do.
Loren
Mike is a great guy. I’ve talked to him,
and played whistles with him, at
festivals. We have covered the
waterfront on this, all of us, yes?
I have had all sorts of weird
experiences with whistle makers
that flowed entirely from their
being stretched thin or from
simple forgetfulness and human
error. People go into this because
they love music and making whistles,
not because they’re geniuses
at business. And I have made oh
so many mistakes myself…
By all means learn from
experience, but I say: all’s
well that ends well. Oh my
heaven, how gladly I would
settle for that…
I’m not trying to make you shut up Loren… Rave-on. I just wanted to call to your attention that you’re beyond being excessive at this point. It’s obvious you can’t see it!
Everyone else has ‘chilled’ but you.
I read this thread before I read the “Burke low D” thread and I though to myself “I wonder if Loren’s gonna go there making sure he’s covered all bases” and BINGO there you setting the record straight.
The last time you got this vicious you became annoying to some people and decided to take a break from C&F.
Actually Tony, I posted what I did in the Low D thread in an effort to be as fair as possible to Mike. If you had read my previous reviews of Burke Low D whistles you’d understand this.
You see the fact is that while I really, really like Burke Brass Soprano whistles, I think Mike’s Low D’s require a lot of air and have a sort of bland sound. I’ve said this before, with no reason to be baised at the time. If I say it now however people will think that has something to do with this thread, even though it doesn’t. So, I suggested searching the archives.
Davris has just received a Burke Low D, he’s in the “Honeymoon Period” plus he feels bad about what’s happened in this thread he started, hardly the makings of an unbiased review, so I suggested checking the archives.
People on the message board who feel one way or the other about Burke whistles are likely going to feel less comfortable posting at the moment, and the person who asked about Burke Low D’s is looking for feedback now, So I suggested he check the archives.
It seems to me that reading Burke Low D reviews from prior to today would yield a more evenhanded picture of what these whistles are really all about. I don’t see what your problem with that is, and a can’t think of a logical argument against it.
As for being viscious:
Was it vicious of me to say I think Mike makes very fine whistles?
Does a truly viscious person state that he is willing to change is opinion down the line?
Would you call it vicious of me to take time out of my day to offer Mike information and advice that he didn’t have regarding how he could help his Customer Darvis in regards to the Overlimit History on his credit card account?
Am I viscious to offer Mike my best wishes in both business and private life?
Is it vicious to say that I think Mike Burke is a wonderful human being?
I’ve said all those things in this thread, how brutally viscious of me Tony. Yes indeed, I’m a real monster…
Loren
Loren,
I’m saying In the beginning, you’re always so eager to go for the throat. You attack the village and take no surviviors. Sometimes people aren’t offended by what you say (or the accuracy of the information) it’s HOW you come across saying it.
I look forward to your responses (really, I do) and sit here wondering “what the hell provoked him to say that?”
Yes, agreed there was a ‘Honeymoon Period’ going on the low D thread, but you were too ‘in the face’ on that one and a few hours later when you camly explain yourself about the archives, well… it sounds so ‘in-place’ then.
You might also agree that many of these hand made instruments are individually voiced so if Mike read a bad review of his Low D he could make revisions rather quickly and not hundreds of units later…
So, maybe it’s time for an updated product review ??
YES the information about credit and history you gave out was great… razor sharp and to the point. You sliced and diced him with it (counselor, it might have been better off board if you’re such friends. Just my thoughts)
No, I’m not going into detail tit-for-tat of every facet of this thread… It’s not all that important and I think we BOTH have better things to do.
Loren, you’re a very intelligent guy and anyone who doesn’t believe that is a fool, but something about your personality tends to be a bit overpowering.
Tony,
As you said, no point in going tit for tat here, so I’ll address only two issues:
I posted the information regarding the credit card stuff here, rather than directly to Mike, not in an effort to cut Michael down, but rather because it’s important information for everyone who uses credit cards, and I care about those who visit this message board.
You see, it’s been my experience that people have no idea the multitude of ways they can and do get screwed by their credit card companies, and this particular situation is one. Fact is, I detested working for the credit card company that employed me once I realized how they, and the industry as a whole really do business. Man, if you want to hear me get viscious, you should hear me go off on the Credit Card industry!!
Bottom line though: I wanted as many people as possible to have the information regarding what the consequences of going over the limit on you account can be, and what you should do in cases where it’s not your fault. So instead of just helping Mike and Darvis, I was attempting to help as many people as possible.
I think Tony, that if people will look closely at what I say here on the message board, they will see that I don’t maliciously attack people for sport or personal satisfaction, I point things out that that I feel can cause harm to the general message board population if they aren’t careful, things that most folks here aren’t comfortable addressing.
Tony, I am aware that my personality comes across as overpowering here at times, and I have tried to attenuate that, belive it or not. I’ve managed to make peace with Brian Lee (I think), and Steve Power - who I’m happy to say has well proven himself to be a great vendor with the very best customer service - good for you Steve, you’ve made me eat my words, and I’m happy to do so!
I’ve bit my lip to avoid major blowouts with Phil Hardy recenlty, though it pains me to do so.
I’ve attempted to reach an agreement with Bloomfield on how to best avoid public conflict between us, although that appears to have failed.
And much as I wanted to tear K Mike to shreds for some of the things he’s said recently, I’ve kept quiet, since adding my 2 cents would only fuel the fire and not really save anyone from harm.
So you see Tony, as much as my personality will allow, I’ve compromised to avoid being a major contributor of chaos on this message board. However, I’m not going to completely quit being Loren Bookbinder simply because it makes some people uncomfortable.
As shocking as my words seem to some at times, I’m equally surprised by how often people will overlook the validity of what I’m saying, simply because they don’t care for the delivery - and my delivery doesn’t change the facts or re-write history, nor do I lie.
Well, I’ve written about enough - Folks can say what they want, but the fact is that I don’t pounce on anyone around here for sport, belive it or don’t…it won’t change the truth.
Loren.