As Seamus Ennis famously said You know, there’s an awful lot to be said for this Irish traditional folk music and folklore, because first of all you have to learn it, and first you must learn the Talk, and then you must learn the Grip, and after that you must learn the Truckly-How, and then you have the whole lot, only just to keep on practising it.
Well we have had plenty of the Talk here. And now we have the Grip. But who will start the thread on the Truckly-How?
Ballygo - in terms of tone what do you mean? Is it that the classical grip, or the grip you have moved to, holds the flute steadier and therefore the tone is more consistent?
Terry - thanks for links to the many possible grips. The left thumb ‘securing’ the flute against the lip (as shown in the other current pipers grip thread youtube video) has made a huge difference to how steady and comfortably I can hold the flute. I had been trying to keep that thumb out of play altogether and ended up cramping it under the body rather than where it rests easily, rotated round more to the side.
People must really forget how difficult this was starting out - or they had a very different experience from me. Great to share those wee moments of success. Thanks Ballygo.
cheers
Stephen
naw…it was ugly 
If you are playing keyless, and you have no intention of ever playing a keyed flute, you have a few more options than someone that wishes all eight fingers and the left thumb to be free to move.
so, spread some enlightenment already 
I’m with Terry Mc on the Rockstro variant. I used to keep me right thumb below the flute, but since moving it up to the side, my fluting has improved significantly in terms of right hand technique.
B rolls–still tough but coming along. If everything else is better with a certain grip, I’d say go with that one.
I also use grip tape (the kind you stick on the end of stairs to keep folks from slipping) in small strips at the base of my left index, where my left thumb rests, my right pinky and right thumb. I believe it helps make the grip easier and less slippery. The more stable the flute, the better one can play, both in terms of speed and indirectly tone.
Jason
Excellent, the answer I was hoping for in order to set this up: if you can’t get a good seal, you aren’t doing it right. Especially for those of us with four-piece flutes, there are a multitude of different ways to set the flute up, as regards rotating the pieces relative to one another. Get this right and you’ll have a chance to make the grip work for you.
Rob
See, now we’ve got one wheel back on the road. 
-Kirk
I use piper’s grip, and I agree with Rob.
I’m glad this thread has been brought back on topic. Of course sealing the holes affects tone, so the grip one uses does make a difference.
Just yesterday I received my new (used) flute, a Windward by Forbes Christie (thanks Doc!). To finance it I traded in my small-handed Casey Burns folk flute, which was extremely comfortable for this small handed person to play.
The Windward is a Pratten with larger holes and a larger spread. I knew in advance that there was going to be a settling-in period. I played for quite a while last night, and it seems clear that I’ll need to use piper’s grip (I have restricted range of motion in my left elbow due to an old injury, so the classical grip just seems uncomfortable to me). Piper’s grip will take some getting used to, as my finger movements are not as crisp as they were on my folk flute. Fair enough. But I also noticed that occasionally my tone was pretty inconsistent, and this was clearly because, using piper’s grip, I was not always sealing all of the holes all of the way. For some reason, in the upper octave this didn’t seem to be any problem, and the tone was great.
So, to return to the thread, grip does certainly seem to be at least part of the key, although of course embouchure can be developed regardless of hole-sealing.
My question to the board is this: is it safe for me to assume that the quality of my seals will improve with piper’s grip over time as I get used to it? I sure hope so because I am loving this new flute!
Pete
Yes, it’s bound to improve unless the flute is just too big for your hands.
But if you can cover the holes with piper’s without a lot of strain, it
probably isn’t too big.
Like anything else, piper’s grip takes some getting used to,
and one may at first not feel the holes as definitely as one did
with classical, but there’s no question it’s doable.
The ‘sealing’ problem is common with newbies to piper’s.
I have been classical grip all along, but shifted the right hand (I’m a right handed player) to bring the thumb out to the side of the flute. Works great, in Rob Sharer’s words, the fingers should be like little sausages one can flip up and down. Use less tension and more momentum and bounce.
Now I am trying to do that with the left hand, AKA piper’s grip. It’s tough to balance the flute, and I find the elbows have to come out from the body a bit and I have to crank the neck around to the left. Once I settle in and don’t drop the dang flute, it really works well.
So my question is - what do you piper’s grip people do with the all-open C# ?? and how about a keyed flute with the b-flat key pushed down by the thumb when needed?
Lewis
Thank you all for your thought´s.
I am a piper so that is the grip I naturally went for first. I now have a keyed flute , and of course it is difficult to access some of the keys with that grip . I have a good ear and tried to copy my favorite players and the tone they produce . But I could never seem to get it , despite my experience as a musician . It´s only when I tried the classic grip / 19th century , that the tone stabilized , and the passages became longer and also the feeling of more control , except for the dammed B note and trying to roll it . But it´s getting better , and I just have to wait. I will go with this grip now as it has brought all the other aspects ( Embouchure e.t.c) together.
Ballygo
I haven’t been able to locate the Truckly-How. Could some one please point me in the direction of down the garden path?
This has been a very helpful thread and I appreciate all of the input, especially from Terry and Akiba!!! This thread has helped resolve some issues I’ve had with both my Boehm and Irish Flute. I only wish I had seen this a few years back. Thanks again.
This thread has helped me a little as well. I’ve been playing a Boehm flute a bit, still an absolute beginner. So I picked up a Dixon low D, the basic one-piece model. Had no problem on the first night I tried playing it, but that success seemed to elude me since. Maybe initial success was due to a ‘relaxed’ state after imbibing.
Anyway, I’m now drifting to a combination of the Boehm grip left hand, and piper’s right. If I have a particular difficulty, it is sealing the E hole, which is particularly large on the Dixon one-piece, almost as large as the embouchure.
If I understand you, one can cut the B note by tapping the C natural key (if you have one),
and this works too as the beginning of a B roll. Not necessary to move L1.
Just wanted to add to this discussion that once i moved my RH thumb from underneath (pushing vertically) to the side (pushing horizontally, as described by Rockstro), my RH fingers were immediately able to move more fluidly. also, I had been starting to experience some “carpal-tunnel” type symptoms and pain in my right hand and this new position cured that right up. The change in the RH thumb position also seemed to change my posture a bit (moving the right elbow back and positioning the right forearm in a more horizontal position and squaring the shoulders up, less of a “slumping” posture while playing). And thus lessened some of the pressure I had also been experiencing in my left hand as well. Not to mention that the improved overall posture also helped improve breathing, sustaining tone, and volume control as well.
P.S. In reference to another thread on adjectives describing tone, add this one “slumping”
The relative rotation of the flute joints, grip, and body positions will all affect tone, or at least, changing one may appreciably affect the other(s) in a good or bad way. Also you have to consider what might work best for short term, endurance, and long term (career) playing. For example, I find that my left hand can become tired, and consequently I have a mild tendency of rotating the flute outward. My embouchure can adapt somewhat but only up to a certain point. Shoulder playing does wonders for stabilizing the flute, and thus flute tone, but difficult to maintain for long periods especially if one is prone to tension (performance anxiety, noisy pubs, and speedy sessions).
Grip is only one of the keys.
Akiba: I really appreciate your suggestion regarding the use of “grip tape.” I’m going to apply some to both my Boehm Flute and my conical flutes. Keeping proper position of the Boehm Flute on my left hand index finger (above the 1st knuckle) has been a problem for me forever due to the fact that the silver flute is so damn slippery. There for a while I was using double sided carpet tape; don’t suppose I need to tell you how poorly that worked out. Thanks again.
Heh heh, a flute that’s “hard to put down”? Why not just apply a drop of superglue to the contact points before the session? (Heh heh)
When I was experimenting with some of this, I used sandpaper (grit outwards), held on by double-sided tape. That worked fine, but I guess that is basically what “grip tape” is.
It’s interesting that Rockstro appears to be the last to recommend the 19th century three-point hold. I wonder if it became less relevant after the development of the Boehm style flute where the fingers are hardly stretched, and that Rockstro was just being old-fashioned (he learned on the 8-key). Or to put it in a more positive way, it may not be necessary for Boehm-style flute, but the 8-key really cries out for it? What argument can we mount that says what was essential for the 19th century 8-key player is no longer essential for us?
It’s an interesting pair with the “blowing down towards the centre” embouchure approach, isn’t it. Bit by bit, we seem to be rediscovering how to play these flutes. I wonder what else we might learn from the 19th century?
Terry
Why should it? If you understand the separate functions of your grip and your blow, you should be able to set the flute and yourself up so that 1) your hands and body are comfortable, with full range of motion, and 2) you get your best tone without having to chivvy the flute around to do so.
Grip should have no effect on tone.
Rob