Seems Mr. Grey Larsen & others are credited with copyright on ‘arrangements’ of well known Irish trad tunes like the ‘Lark in the Strand’ or ‘Banish Misfortune’ and a host of others etc.!! Anyway, someone is being chased for monies for playing these tunes at a session. Mr.Larsen has chimed in (apparently) saying that he did not compose the tunes (surprise, surprise) but he owns certain arrangements.
Arrangements, my arse … shame on him. Variations and arrangements are as old as the hills in ITM. He stands on the shoulders of those though went before and he should have the humility to accept that. Makes my blood boil…
You have a damn good point Flutered, but to be fair, Grey has chimed in and explained himself clearly and in a polite manner. He is even contacting BMI to correct this situation. Stopping others from playing the tunes was never Grey’s attention, as he says himself. Read on and find out for yourself.
Simon - I do understand that…but personally, I have issues with the recording industry in general and the concept of applying intellectual rights to traditional music. Within trad music the possibilities of “arrangement” are limited - it could be a certain set becomes an arrangement, but unless the musician can prove he/she was the very first person every to play that set then the set itself should be within public domain (there is a very good chance that set has been played for years at a session somewhere). As for interternal variations, many of those copywrited appear to be little more than when and where rolls and cuts are added…and again there is no way to prove that the musician didn’t hear someone else play the tune that way.
As an aside, I’m not against professional musicians…I have an uncle who has made a ton of money thanks to Clapton and Skynard recording his songs. However, he wrote those song and the melodies himself, and I see no issue with that.
Grey’s responses over at the session were great. I’ve sent a few emails back and forth with Grey in the past - seems like a great guy. I’m in no way trying to attack Grey.
As one respondent of the thesession thread stated, the problem is the enforcement, which we unanimously recognize to be inappropriate, except where performers identically publish/perform someone else’s “arrangement”. Shame on record companies for hiring incompetent twits.
“I thank Michael for letting me know of this discussion. This is surely a very sticky mess. I was not aware of these problems, and it has never been my intention to impede anyone who plays or records traditional tunes or who runs an establishment where traditional tunes are enjoyed. Quite the contrary. I will get in touch with BMI promptly and see what I can find out. If it will help, I will see if I can un-register arrangements that include traditional tunes which I had registered in the past.”
Can’t say I’ve anything against Grey Larsen per se but the plain fact of the matter is that he has been ‘found out’ claiming ownership of ‘arrangements’ of traditional tunes.
I can’t see any problem with Grey borrowing these tunes to record & sell CD’s, illustrate his books, make a living etc.
But that’s all he should be doing - borrowing them. He doesn’t own them or ‘variations/ arrangements’ of them, neither do his publishers or record companies.
I’m sure there’s loads of others artistes up to the same thing, be interesting to hear directly from them.
There’s a basic mismatch between how trad-based musicians see music and how copyright legislation is written.
Not copyrighting your arrangement is giving revenue from the mechanical reproduction right to your record company; making this music is direly underpaid as it is. Who can afford to do that?
But copyrighting arrangements doesn’t merely gain you that additional royalty, it theoretically imparts the right to claim the same from anyone else who plays or records a similar setting in the future–a right which trad ethics say should not be yours.
There’s no good option. Maybe what we need is something like like the GPL for trad arrangements - you claim the copyright for your arrangement (& the mechanical repro royalty) while stipulating a free general license for others.
Just to put the thing in perspective, BMI is demanding a
licensing fee from a club owner who has some ITM
performers. This has nothing to do with Grey’s music.
The owner doesn’t wish to pay. He sent to BMI a tune list
of the tunes being played. BMI responded they
have rights to The Lark in the Strand. They don’t
nor does Grey’s copyright of the arrangement
give them that, nor does this pertain to the club
(his arrangement isn’t being used).
Grey then chimes in to the thread and says
this is entirely wrong, for heaven’s sake play
the tunes, he will contact BMI about it and,
if necessary, uncopyright the arrangement.
No, Grey is not the bad guy in this story.
And Simon has explained why the arrangement
got copyrighted.
Something deserves to be understood. There
are people who are living without much money,
because they have devoted
their lives to this music and they are trying
to eke out a living in various ways so they
can go on making music. And it’s a mistake
to blast them for things like this; it’s the
only way they can go on. The copyrighting
of arrangements is widespread. This is part of
the way they make money off recordings.
It’s clearly BMI and ASCAP that need to be blasted. They have a long history of bullying and trying to force venues who only have live, traditional music players into paying their fee. Just because a tune name appears on their list does not mean the tune itself is under copywrite - it may well just be the arrangement.
Their enforcers are clearly trained to deal with pop songs which are commonly covered by small bands and not on the realm of folk and traditional music where most tunes and songs are not under copywrite.
There are frightening parallels bewteen BMI and a gang requiring payment of “protection” money on a business in their territory…
Thank you for the breath of fresh air, Jim, for what GL and so many others face is a damned if you do and a damned if you don’t situation.
Basically, without some form of copyright protection, an author simply cannot afford to give away their work, yet perhaps “traditional” material could defy such copyright, and so just where could a line be drawn?
In practical terms, an author needs to copyright everything they publish, or perhaps we, the audience, could in the future get nothing.
Some understanding, and some latitude, appear necessary.
This matter comes up often, in folk, trad and other circles. You may remember a few years back that the copyright mafia set their sights on the lucrative potential represented by boy-scout groups, sitting, singing their songs and parodies around the campfire, songs and parodies that appeared on recordings and thus were, as far as the copyright guys were concerned, were their product. What an important lesson the boy-scouts would have learned, as they solicited bobs-for-jobs, mowing lawns and washing cars, to pay off their debts to the music moguls.
The reality is of course that the songs largely belonged to the scouts movement, just like our tunes belong to the ITM tradition.
Perhaps Comhaltas should, with the support of the Irish Government, seek to be recognised internationally as the copyright owner for traditional Irish tunes, so that any monies collected could at least be directed to a sympathetic cause. That wouldn’t prevent the Ed Reavy’s of the world registering their copyright, nor others their arrangements.
That is a disastrous idea Terry. Comhaltas has always fancied themselves as what Irish music is. They neither represent nor speak for all of us though, and they have already sold themselves to IMRO.
Now is it the idea or the suggested beneficiary that is disastrous? Going back to the idea, would it be preferable for ITM earnings to go to an organisation that would benefit ITM rather than the pop music industry in general?
I also wondered about the ITM Archive as the beneficiary, but I have no close knowledge of its current directions or achievements, and the link might be harder to establish. CCE, for all its sins, IS an association of Irish musicians, and therefore would be in a postion to claim primacy.
I imagine the same difficulty would arise in other countries. EG, the EDFSS is the nominal association representing English folk music, but unless it’s lifted its game since I went there in the seventies, it wouldn’t be a place I’d tend to hang out. But I guess I’d still rather see Trad English royalties go there than to major record companies.
I wonder though how much money we are actually talking here? It might all amount to a storm in a key cup!
I agree that much of the problem is probably ill trained enforcers that target players of pop songs and the title lets you know who wrote and performed the song. ITM wouldn’t fall under that and they are not sure how to handle it. At this point it is probably more about head-butting that anything else.
As far as what you receive from BMI. I have a friend that has recorded music in the Old Time music genre. He is a member of BMI since his membership opens doors to gigs that he might not otherwise have the opportunity to play.
He has heard his music played on the local station before and has never received any money for it. It appears that the larger get groups get paid for their efforts while the small and/or independent musicians do not. He said he contacted BMI about the matter, more out of curiosity, and was told enforcement of niche markets is spotty at best, too small a target.
