Last few copies of Wooden Flute Obsession vol. 2

Irish Flute
1

There are about 7 copies left out of this 1st run (I had found a lost box) of volume 2, and then I am truly out of stock until WFO3 gets pressed. Might still be a few at Elderly Instruments or other dealers at http://www.worldtrad.org/WFO_CD_dealers.htm .

There are some recordings and publications I would like to add to the organization’s library to facilitate the “Wooden Flute Obsession” and other future projects. If you are in a position to donate or offer for sale any of the recordings listed at http://www.worldtrad.org/ITMS/itms_library.htm , then please let me know by email (kevin@worldtrad.org) or a Private Message to kkrell on Chiff & Fipple. Originals only please, as I’m not looking to violate copyrights, etc.

Thanks,

Kevin Krell
Los Angeles, California USA

edited (first attempt) to clarify or correct issues further down the thread.

2

But you will print it again later won’t you?

3

Yes, but possibly not until WFO3 is also ready for replication. Getting there, but still one player touring and not yet completed. Probably 2 months to wrap it all up including mastering and replication time. Sorry folks, but one must make allowances for the working musician.

Kevin Krell

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Kevin Krell

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7 now. I will remove the purchase buttons from the ITMS webpage for WFO2 & the WFO1/WFO2 to indicate when it’s completely out of stock.

Kevin Krell

6

What’s in this for all the fluters who appeared on your “Who’s Where” of flute playing free of charge?

Are they aware that you are using their performances as trading currency? I do feel involved as, if you remember, I put a few of their names your way in good faith.

Regards,

Harry.

7

I also had a few queries about the c.d Harry.
I was a bit fuzzy around the edges where certain things were concerned.
If it is for Charity purposes only, they have my wholehearted support, if not..
Well lets just say, I have been down that road before, and it was rather rocky.

Maria.

8

Harry, Maire, please not to worry. I would not abuse people so, nor could the project continue on such a basis. You’ve probably seen the contracts (if not I can email them, or even post the text here on C&F for all to judge), and all intellectural property remains with the artist, which has certainly NOT been the case with many labels in the past. We deliberately limit the use of tracks so that they are tied to a non-exclusive, non-profit use, so as to minimally interfere with the artists rights to other uses. No download sales, no licensing allowed, no movie deals, no transfer of publication rights, without requiring new and specific permissions from the players (hasn’t happened).

The venture is entirely non-profit (in fact I have to make my 5 year public support filing to the U.S. federal gov’t), there are no salaries, medical benefits etc., and a number of expenses (long distance & international charges, for instance) are paid out of my own pocket. Original funding ($10,000) to get started is also out of my pocket (and not deductible, I might add, due to U.S. restrictions on contributions by incorporators, employees and their blood relations). As I have stated in the past, my only benefit is a pat on the back. I regret if the WFO CDs have helped fuel the increase in flute prices around the world.

Contributing flute players receive a few free copies of the completed CDs, copies of all the prior CDs, free webspace (if desired), and free or reimbursed recording arrangements. This includes recording costs that did not result in satisfactory tracks, and that were withdrawn. Harry, you of all people should know how voluntary the process is, and how reversible up to the point of mastering.

30% of the pressings are distributed free to the artists, other contributors (composers, cooperative labels), radio shows, and reviewers.

I certainly make an effort to be frugal in accomplishing these projects, yet generous in my time and expense to facilitate a pleasant experience for the participants. I try to reduce the impact to their valuable time, even to the detail of including prepaid envelopes with appropriate local postage. Reimbursements include drafts on a local bank, already converted to local currency, with an allowance to accomodate potential bank fees.

For me to explore potential additional projects, it’s helpful to me to have a library of resources of additional recordings & publications. Rather than expending aftersales funds (especially for out-of-print publications), I am instead trying to achieve the most purchasing power via these trades. I’m surprised that anyone would grudge the acquisition of what turns out to be 5-10 CDs a year in a continuing enterprise such as this.

So, Harry, the above is another attempt of appeasement by me to the repeated inquiries you’ve made over the years. Frankly, I’m a bit put off that you still might not feel that these concerns have been properly addressed. Let me state firmly (and I’m not a sociopathic pyscho) that I’m not doing anything wrong, nor have I, nor would I. As they say in movies: “No Flute Players were Harmed in the Making of This Production”. I appreciate that the “Wooden Flute Obsession” concept, at least as implemented, is not to your taste, and I have appreciated your player suggestions and other input. You remain just as welcome to further state your flute playing preferences by contributing a track, although your own CDs make that case splendidly.

Maire, I hope I have your wholehearted support, and it would be warranted. I would still like to see a track from you and Brendan, separately or together.

All the best,

Kevin Krell

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Kevin,

If Claddagh Records (a company that I admire and trust BTW ) or any individual or company that I have been involved with in producing recordings decided to take to the internet and start swapping my musical output (my property) to their own ends then I would be suspicious, and I would be right to be suspicious. To me it seems disrespectful, unfair and most importantly, being that it is done on a public internet forum, a touch squalid.

‘These concerns’ will remain. Don’t feel that I expect you to explain yourself though; I required no further explaination of intent. I wasn’t particularly interested in it the first time round seeing that I don’t know you from Adam.

I would begrudge you anything gained on a basis of treating the rather nice feather that a lot of musicians have popped in your cap as a barter item. Remember, apart from a bit of worthless, meaningless congealed oil and a paper insert, it is their feather. Your leg work does not effect their ownership of their music in any way.

E.G. Needless to say I didn’t reccomend the likes of Peter Horan to you for you to publically attempt to swap his donated performance for a copy of the only commercial recordings that he actually owns himself!

You don’t own his music to treat it this way publically and unashamedly. Maybe if you appreciated just how little Mr. Horan has recieved in return for his lifetime’s effort as an Irish cultural icon you would view the situation rather differently (in fact, if you understood a number of issues relating to recording artists better you would probably view this differently!).

I should point out that I am not a musical materialist. Music exists in the experience of playing first and foremost to me, then it’s gone: most times it evaporates and changes into whatever subtler energies it does, sometimes it is caught to an extent on recordings. The music transcends the material object of the resulting product though and ultimately that is what you are dealing with and dealing in.

Regards,

Harry.

10

Harry,
Well-spoken as always, and convincing. I will withdraw all such offers. I apologize, and regret that I did not of my own see it as disrespectful. I’m not agreeing it’s really to my own ends, as it facilitates assembling a project that I (and most of the flute players I communicate with) see as ultimately being a rather useful resource. I have also attempted to be of assistance in other ways, with offers of business consulting, fulfillment, funding for re-issues of unavailable recordings, etc. So I hope I am doing good works.

However, I think that you are not, perhaps, judging me as having evil intent, but of failing to achieve an understanding of a more complex world of relationships, cultural and respect etc. And I would have to agree that I lack the proper cultural background and (definitely) social skills to ever fully grasp the consequences (potential or actual) of my effect on the players and the music. I hope to move closer to understanding. Your comments often seem to me to full of anger, but I am hoping that if true that is due to the importance of the principles you are attempting to educate me about, rather than in personal animosity. I’m sorry you don’t know me from Adam, but I ain’t so terrible

All the best,

Kevin Krell

11

Kevin is getting a lot of flack for this trading business. The artist’s donated their tracks, got reimbursed for recording time, and receive a few copies each printing. The rest of the money goes to charity right, so your concerns should be about what the charity gains?
Is Kevin entitled to a box of 20 (out of a run of?) CD’s? He said he found a lost box, we don’t know if he bought them for himself, or if that’s part of the deal each pressing or if a big fat non-profit leprechaun came down and willed the box to exist … I guess we could ask. And while we’re asking questions, what percentage of each CD sale goes to charity? And, is that percentage comparable to other charities?
It sounds to me like Kevin’s doing a good job in general. I don’t think he’s abusing Peter Horan’s track by trading out 20 CD’s that we don’t know anything about. Ask some questions and be reasonable, I feel like he just got jumped on. The point about him not personally gaining from the CD’s is a good one, but I think he’s personally lost more money & time on this project than he’ll ever get back trading a few CD’s at the end of a run. It’s fine to be concerned about the artists on the CD, what about the artist who put the project together?

Sincerely,
-George

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Kevin,

What I am judging you on is in sending out the message that its ok to record folk musicians, giving an appearence that they retain ownership of their performances, then using the resulting product in a way that does not portray the music with the dignity that it deserves. I’m not sure if you are aware, but there is huge debate afoot regarding the protection of indigenous culture from copyright ‘theft’ and exploitative commercialism. This is still largely the culture of ‘a people’, not just a commodity or market niche. Unfortunately ‘the people’ are not that concerned and, as your compilations admirably prove, there is little critical distinction being made between enduring musical styles and modern (waht I like to call) Celtic Reinvented Art Performance (I have to admit that some of it is very good music on it’s own terms, but its as far removed from Irish folk music as Rory Gallagher!)

Some may say its only a few tunes and there’s more where that Irish and “Irish-ish”/‘Celtic’ stuff came from. Others who are observing the inevitable but accelerated decline and simultaneous commercial rape of certain native cultures worldwide might observe it somewhat differently. We are being commodity-ized.

It’s open season on ‘Irish’ folk music, the CelfFest feeding frenzy is going from strength to strength. Other will disagree, but I am of the opinion that certain strands of musical, and wider cultural tradition, must be valued above marketing values.

If you detect anger in any response to this it is because it is a situation that angers me. If you detected wariness on my part in any of our dealings it was for the sole reason that I didn’t think you appreciated the value of some of the stuff you were getting. If anybody on this and other forums detects cynicism in my e-utterences it is because I have little value for this medium as a means of transmitting Irish culture. If our cultural experience is reduced to this and the odd awkward session then we may as well start shafting each other for the want of something more meaningful to do.

Regards,

Harry.

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ps. I wish you well, and would not expect you to see it this way. Some things have to be worth giving an opposing opinion for though.

I predict that WFO vol. XVII will be the ground breaker in this respect; To be released in conjunction with a female native american taking the american presidency.

H.

14

Harry,
I’m sorry, I did not feel I was contributing to the shameful situations you deplore. I am striving to do the exact opposite. Your first sentence obviously did apply, though, and I am taking steps to correct it. Beyond that, you are speaking to a bigger issue, which is taking a free ride tacked onto my behavior. I would hope that I share none of those larger negative values you lay out above. I was shocked during my initial investigation into tracks for volume 1, that most of the musicians did not own or control their own recordings. Even such well-known musicians as Matt Molloy had little say in their use.

You’re valid in your complaints against an industry that has atrocious behaviors and attitudes, and this is another opportunity to vent and work to turn the tide away from those behaviors. But I think those greater complaints are largely misplaced in regards to me. I won’t say it’s ever wasted effort, but you’ve expended far too much ammunition against me than probably necessary to make that point, at least as far as I am concerned. Firstly, I’d rather see individuals (or a movement) expend effort involved in attaining better legal rights for musicians, as well as educating players and providing them with resources (sample contracts, royalty agreements, etc.), and items such as better medical & retirement care (such as many U.S. TV Entertainers receive). Secondly, honey would have been as effective as vinegar.

Kevin Krell

15

Well, all in good fun, then. I’m persistent in my own right, and you go on being so in yours. Can I put you down for that volume?

Kevin

16

Come now lads lets be nice about it.

Kevin,

you need to understand that while your intentions are indeed meant in the best possible way, we this end of the world, have been asked to take part in various offers over the years.
In alot of the semi-proffessional/proffessional musicians experiences here, things have not always been so honorable.
After doing a recording some 6yrs back, I happened to come across a company selling tracks I had laid down at that time.
It was supposed to be an experiment in regional styles, and I recieved no monies from it, nor have I to this date.
With a family to feed, I cant afford to throw away my time for the benefit of a studio looking to make a fast buck, especially when they managed to get monetary value out of it, and I didnt get as much as traveling expenses.
The other point in question, is that this is not a personal matter.

I have similar experiences with a few organisations all of whom wont be mentioned here.
Indeed one of those recordings has come back to haunt me. I hate it with a passion, yet without any choice in the matter I am forced to be reminded of it on a regular basis. Before you ask, I recieved royalties, and even though this company has sold the piece (which I believe to be sub-standard ), many times , I haven`t recieved any further payments.

On the other hand, as Harry pointed out, some of these older musicians may never do another formal recording, and they will probably look back on the one you did with them in prosterity and pride. You owe their music a certain amount of respect as you do for the people themselves.
I`m sure this is all just a load of Cows wallop to some people, but some of these players are our friends and it kind of de-values their artistic imput by touting their music like that, although I am sure that was never your intention.

Good luck in your endeavours Kevin.

Maria

17

I think we’ve arrived there, and not sure we ever left the world of ‘nice’.

Kevin,

you need to understand that while your intentions are indeed meant in the best possible way, we this end of the world, have been asked to take part in various offers over the years.
In alot of the semi-proffessional/proffessional musicians experiences here, things have not always been so honorable.
After doing a recording some 6yrs back, I happened to come across a company selling tracks I had laid down at that time.
It was supposed to be an experiment in regional styles, and I recieved no monies from it, nor have I to this date.
With a family to feed, I cant afford to throw away my time for the benefit of a studio looking to make a fast buck, especially when they managed to get monetary value out of it, and I didnt get as much as traveling expenses.

Similar experiences were related to me, and showed me just what to avoid, and what assurances to give. For example, Jack Coen would not participate in WFO because of having received harsh treatment from a label. He did appreciate the CDs I sent him anyway, and thought the project a good idea. He thanked me for being the only one who ever ASKED for permission, although I’m sure he still felt it safest to decline. BTW, I had permission from that same label to include a track, but I made the effort to contact Mr. Coen in search of his OK. Didn’t get it, didn’t use the track, regardless of my legal permission to do so. I hope that speaks somewhat to my willingness to respect players’ wishes. I think my contract protects from such abuses as you yourself experienced. I have noticed that quite a bit in Ireland gets done on a handshake, and while I accept that, I wanted to make an even stronger committment for my part. My goal is to eventually sit down and play flute with you all (if and when I can play worth a damn), and pissing you all off by behaving badly would not be consistent with that goal. Boy, all I need is to dedicate the remainder of my life to flute playing and get myself blacklisted and excluded from participating. That’ll make life worth living.

The other point in question, is that this is not a personal matter.

I’m not sure I understand this. Do you mean the “BIG PICTURE” that Harry refers to? That there are problems industry-wide (and maybe just the fact that I just called it an industry), and injustices that must be prevented?

I have similar experiences with a few organisations all of whom > wont > be mentioned here.
Indeed one of those recordings has come back to haunt me. I hate it with a passion, yet without any choice in the matter I am forced to be reminded of it on a regular basis. Before you ask, I recieved royalties, and even though this company has sold the piece (which I believe to be sub-standard ), many times , I haven`t recieved any further payments.

Again, addressed in my approach. First off, the players are encouraged to select the tunes to record, and given the additional opportunity of recording tunes for which royalties might need to be paid to composers, so as not to limit the possible selection. The idea was to not have that monetary issue restrict their selection, as might be a reasonable concern when recording an entire CD. Tracks that might make a personal CD financially infeasible, or not fit into their (or a label’s) particular vision for a CD. For instance, a multi-instrumentalist might focus on a particular instrument, such as pipes, and thus a flute track wouldn’t make it onto their CD.

Also, there is no expectation of payment anywhere in the process, and the artist is certainly donating the use of their intellectural property, willingly. They don’t make any money, but then neither do I. My intention is also not to put them to any monetary expense, either, other then the committment of their time and talent. That was the agreement, and I’m sticking to it for these CDs. It was also necessary, mostly on WFO1, to get the cross-label participation I felt essential to show a wide range of styles. Labels otherwise weren’t interested in allowing their ‘talent’ to be included at all. If I want to start a for-profit venture, that would be handled separately, as another company, on a different sort of basis.

In the end, the artist gets final approval as to whether to include a track or kill it. This has happened in a few instances, and while painful for me (especially if I liked the track), if the result is not something the player is willing to have out there for others to hear, I do not begrudge them the right to make that decision. And as I mentioned in another post, no transfer or assignments. WFO tracks are a non-exclusive use, limited to non-profit purposes, and I may not repackage, reuse, or license them in any way. It appears on the WFO discs as originally published, and I cannot use them in other ways. No WFO, no track. No ITMS, no track - they die with the organization (except for copies at the Irish Traditional Music Archive).

On the other hand, as Harry pointed out, some of these older musicians may never do another formal recording, and they will probably look back on the one you did with them in prosterity and pride.

That’s more what I was thinking, and hoping for.

You owe their music a certain amount of respect as you do for the people themselves.

I do. I’m not really a flute player stalker. I’m not some freaky collector of Barbie dolls, or Toby mugs, or flute players. It’s because of the respect of the players and their playing that I am so interested in doing this. And everyone has been so incredibly warm and kind and generous that I can’t fail to love them, that I’d do anything for them. I started this project from scratch, having no experience in flute playing, the music industry, audio, CD publication, or, frankly, a social skill to my name. I’ve learned a lot over these last 4-5 years, and don’t intend to stop doing so.

I`m sure this is all just a load of Cows wallop to some people, but some of these players are our friends and it kind of de-values their artistic imput by touting their music like that, although I am sure that was never your intention.

It was an admitted mistake/misjudgement. I overstepped any reasonable boundaries, and was soundly slapped for it. It was never so intended, and I hope I will be forgiven.

Good luck in your endeavours Kevin.

Maria

Thanks, Maria, for more on the subject. I hope I’ve managed to explain my philosophy equally well.

Kevin Krell

18

Thats alright Kevin, I just didnt want you thinking that I was going to make a throw away comment, without backing it up with a few of my own thoughts on the matter.
I am glad you agree that some things need careful thought, often we barge through life unintentionally causing upset. You seem to me to be a mannerful man, who would be appalled to be seen in such a light.
And if you think Harrys comments are academic, I know an ole Fluter from Belfast who could clarify the matter for you, this boy is still complaing about a certain company who re-released his work without so much as a by-your-leave. The fact it was recorded more than 20yrs a go has no bearing on the issue for him, he still hates it !
Forgive me if I seem a bit Jaded, I do wish you well with all sincerity.

Maybe the best thing to do is not discuss these things on the forum. The meaning of a comment can be lost in translation here, although, your work does appear in a more transparent light now, because if I had questions, I’m sure others did too.

Regards and take care,

Maria

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I’ve generally made it a public process, from flute player suggestions, through listing proposed players, tune titles and MP3 samples as the project progresses. I’m sure that commercial labels tend to be a bit more secretive. My thought is since it’s supposed to benefit the public, that the public should participate (and hopefully ANTICIPATE) all along.

And I don’t think Harry is being academic, I’ve already seen the damage that is being done. Sets that were cobbled together from unrelated recordings, added accompaniment not involved in the original recordings, release of tracks that were never paid for, from publishing opportunities that were not utilised 15 years ago. There have also been tracks for which I had the artists permission, and that they’d like included in WFO, but since they don’t have control it can’t happen. A shame.

Kevin Krell

ps. yeah it’s 4:30 am and I’m still up.

20

I AM NOT AN ACADEMIC (disclaimer)

ITM (or any other term for ‘it’) is a term fraught with all the problems that come with placing a simple conceptualisation onto a very large and inter-related set of things. When we use the term we are referring to our concept of what it includes/ excludes and our acceptance and rejection of what it should or should not include, and we are projecting our experiences of ITM-ness onto whatever we are percieving. It is obvious that we are not referring to, say, Beethoven when we use the term, but at the same time it is not a definite or self evident as to what we do mean in a broader sense (to anybody but ourselves, based on our own experience). The term is now even more inherently indefinite due to the various strata of individuals using it who do not share similar cultural and social backgrounds, their experience of ITM-ness is different and so the term means something different in usage. This egocentric discriminating awareness was always present to some extent, but I think it is fair to say that a recent upturn in the saleability of ‘Irishness’ to a broader audience of potential participants in ‘Irishness’ has increased the diversity in the perception of “Irishness”. This diversity causes tensions within the wider ITM community.

It is aguable that, until quite recently, the identity of ITM used to be much more clear cut. You had a smaller number of localised dedicated performers and other participents working within generally accepted aesthetic parimeters. They were largely Irish or of direct Irish descent and availed of a strong cultural identity that was probably more adhesive that it was constrictive, and, from a traditional arts point of view, more creative than distructive. They identified with their idea of ‘the culture’ and often with other things that popularly went with it (nationalism,’ gaelic-ism’ etc.). This is an identity that it is now popular to reject or at least to strongly question (or just demonise). It did have its negative aspects and results (like all cultural movements) and in it’s defining and energising and cohesive aspects it had its relatively positive results.

Interestingly, in what seems to be a reaction to the more insular and constrictive aspects of ‘Old Cultural Ireland’, I now see a movement emerged that is at least equally as misguided and short sighted (but, tragically, not at all aware of the fact!). For all its swagger of internationalism (as ‘opposed’ maybe to insular nationalism) this roughly defined movement has found its stumbling block of neurotic self interest (and self loathing): commercialism, and its role as a commodity.

The wider emerging self centeredness and selfish materialism will be of no suprise to most people living in Ireland, you often hear people complain about the changing values here, the localised distribution of ‘our’ new wealth, the shift in spiritual (not just religious) values. The parallel is easily percieved in the ethics, lack of ethics and general shift in what is acceptable in folk music performance and related business.

My worry is that this materialist ethic will become a distraction for all concerned, that the inevitable tensions within ‘the traditions’ will distract more of us into the clammer for ‘ownership’ rights, royalties, publishing rights etc. and detract from what are the less selfish, and more cohesive, aspects of ,what is after all, the extended family of ITM culture. But it should be realised that there are difinite movements afoot within Irish music and tension will exist if these are lumped together, there are contrasting aesthetic and ethical outlooks that are not always complimentary from the perspective of some performers.

Being able to identify the sublime from the cynical is, of course, as desirable a quality as ever at this time. Of great use also would be the self effacing, humourous and irreverent introspection that could be considered one of our highest cultural achievements. When will those critics and commentators graduate from our universities please?

Regards,

Harry.