GHBs at Irish cultural events

Uilleann Pipes
41

Ok…let’s get one thing straight here…
There is a big difference between the garb worn at a Renaissance Festival and a Pipe Band competition. We do not spend all winter sewing Book of Kells inspired embroidary onto our princess gowns and chieftain tunics.

We rehearse.

I do not understand this “dress up” principle. Never once have I woken up the day of a competition and thanked the creator that I’d be able to don a 14 oz wool skirt in the blistering sun all day. However, I still do…but it’s more of a matter of pride than fashion sense. When I compete solo…I’m proud to wear my family’s tartan. When I play in a band…I’m proud to wear my band’s colors.

Plus, it is just proper etiquette.
I wouldn’t wear a T-Shirt and Jeans to play at a funeral.
I wouldn’t wear a tux to a baseball game.

Where are these bands that “look better than they play?”
I have never seen one of these at a competition.
Yes…your typical parade band will do it up with the feather bonnets and half plaids and spend more time ironing these than warming up.
Guess what…they’re being “judged” by a generally non-piping audience based on superficial factors. Of course they’re going to do it up in the “looks” department. That’s what the crowd is going to remember.

In competition Yes…pipe bands are adjudicated on Dress and Deportment…from time to time. I’d say in my 5 summers spent competiting in bands, I have seen 3 dress and deportment prizes handed out. Why? because it’s not important. There is no spot on a judge’s score sheet to mark how good the band looks. They are so busy critiquing tone, intonation, balance, ensemble, etc…the “cut of the band’s jib” is rarely examined.

The kilt acts more like a sport jersey than a “medieval druids cloak.”
Just as a soccer team takes the field and operates as a big machine, so does a pipe band. That is the musical philosophy present at GHB competitions.

If you have a problem with the aesthetics of the music…that is a different debate for a different thread. Please don’t pick on us about how our pipe major dresses us.

Cheers

42

Earliest recorded plaid is from Ulster and is a very mellow light saffron and black.
No such thing as “family” plaids.This was a victorian invention largely due to the romancings of Walter Scott(novelist) and Victoria(queen of the brits,or should I say Team GB! :boggle: )
Highlanders generally wore what was available locally or if the could afford it whatever took their fancy.The victorians in their own daft way formalised just about everything they could in life including turning a very practical form of garb which served both as bum warmer,rain cloak and blanket into a sanitised short skirt(invented by an English man called Thomas Rawlinson in 1730)nicely labelled into family clan tartan and sold on to dafties as “the real McCoy”…
The word is “Fleadh” not fladh pronounced roughly " flar"
Piob or Phiob is pronounced pib or peeb (not peeob as was mentioned earlier)Mhor ye already know.(well Brianc seems to have mastered the pronounciation,well done!! :roll: )
Slan Go Foill
Uilliam

43

Quote:“…Please don’t pick on us about how our pipe major dresses us.”

…Talk about an open invitation for a jibe! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

44

not peeob as was mentioned earlier

C’mon now. It’s tough to give the quality of the final B correctly with “english” spelling in the same way that you tried with “flar.”

45

Perhaps something like: You’re ugly and your pipe major dresses you funny?

46

Its got nothing to do with the final B.Ye seem to have placed an accent on the O in your version when it is an imperceptable letter O.
Piob or Phiob =Pib ,Peeb(no O sound.)Piobaire=..peeberry( no O sound..)

What do ye mean by my trying with “flar”? :boggle: That is as close a pronounciation into sassenach as I can think of ,unless ye have other ideas? :wink:

Ye also seem to be having a slight problem with your English as ye quote "aglicization"in yer erm…“original” post .
Talking of which why did ye repeat what I had already said in my post?
I do hope this isn’t the beginning of a trend where we all endlessly repeat one and other.. :astonished:
Slan Go Foill
Uilliam
PS This information is of absolutely no use to anyone other than geeks and will in no way hinder nor enhance your playing of the Piob Uilleann …

47

What do ye mean by my trying with “flar”?

I’m sure when you say “flar” it sounds like fleadh, but you’d be rather dismayed with the results if any north american pronounce fleadh like “flar.”

48

Ye have a point Eric :wink: I’ve suggested that we call the uilleann pipes American Pipes on another thread, maybe we should call this American Gaelic? :boggle:
Slan Go Foill
Uilliam

49

Here’s an excerpt from a paper I wrote regarding upiping/issues related to upiping:

The Uilleann pipes are a fairly recent development in Irish history, having evolved from the warpipe or Piob Mar in the early 1700s (Vallely, 1999, p. 410). O’Cainainn (1978, p. 81) contends that the Irish mouth blown pipes, an antecedent to the Uilleann pipes, resembled the present warpipes of Scotland in appearance and in “the unusual tuning of the chanter.” The warpipes have a long history in Ireland, with strong associations with the military. There is evidence that they were used for military purposes prior to the 14th century, as amongst the deeds of the Priory of the Holy Trinity, Dublin, are mentioned “Geoffrey the Piper,” and “William the Piper,” respectively (O’Neill, 1913, p. 36). Writing in 1584, Richard Stanyhurst stated the following:

“It is evident that this instrument must be a very good incentive to courage at the time of battle, for by its tones the Irish are stirred up to fight in the same manner as the soldiers of other nations by the trumpet (O’Neill, 1913, p. 41).”

Further historical evidence of the importance of the warpipes in Irish society is implied by O’Neill, who devotes a chapter of his book, “Irish Minstrels and Musicians” to pipers penalized in the 16th and 17th centuries (O’Neill, 1913, p. 56). Warpipers were considered a dangerous element in Irish society by the occupying English, as almost all of the incursions into the Pale were headed by pipers. Piping was outlawed by the English, with violaters subject to “twenty lashes on the bare back” (p. 57) or transportation to the Barbadoes. Some pipers were granted clemency, however, as O’Neill lists 41 pipers who received state pardons between 1550 and 1603.

The Uilleann pipes evolved to their present form in the early 1700s from the mouth blown warpipe (Vallely, 1999, p. 410) when a method of holding the bag with a strap that passed over the player’s shoulder was invented. This playing method lead to a later development in which a (now) smaller bag could be placed under the elbow, which then administered the necessary and allowed the performer to sit while playing (O’Neill, 1913, p. 40). By the middle of the 18th century, the Uilleann pipes consisted of a bellows blown chanter and two drones (O’Canainn, 1978, p. 82), and they finally achieved their present construction of chanter, three drones and regulators at the beginning of the 19th century (Vallely, 1999, p. 410).

50

You would have done better to go around Vallely. Uilleann pipes come from a not so long lineage of bellows-blown pipes from 15th century France, and not much of anything to do with piob mhor. Some have noted their direct antecedent as the pastoral pipes, but it is unclear how common the pastoral pipes were. But if you’re looking for a European source, start in France with the various forms of the musette. There were several later types of bellows-blown pipes in England as well as Scotland. Who knows, mayber the Irish got bellows-blown pipes from the English!!! Wouldn’t that be a kicker? :laughing:

djm

51

Really? Do you have a source? I am always appreciative of new sources, particularly as regards academic writing (and I will be submitting this paper in full to a journal-I do want to make sure my information is as correct as possible). Perhaps you could share? The information I quoted was taken from “The Companion to Irish Traditional Music,” published by Cork University Press (of which Fintan Vallely was the editor). I was amiss in not naming the author of the Uillieann pipes entry, Eilis Ni Shulleabhain.

O’Neill stated much the same as Ni Shulleabhain (in Vallely) regarding the history of upipes…however, he was writing in 1913, perhaps his information is now considered to be outdated…I am aware that other countries besides Ireland have bellows-blown pipes. Here’s a quote from O’Cannain:

Bellows-blown pipes exist in many countries besides Ireland - in England and France, for instance, so that the addition of the bellows does not seem to have been a peculiarly Irish contribution to pipe development (1978, p. 81).

Regarding mouth-blown pipes, he states that “there are grounds for believing that the Irish mouth-blown pipes resembled the present piob-mhor or warpipes of Scotland, not only in appearance but also, perhaps, in the unusual tuning of the chanter (The present mouth-blown pipe used in Ireland may be regarded as a revival of the Scottish instrument after the native instrument had disappeared.).” (p. 81).


When are you gonna get out to a session Dave? I noticed you had a lot of information to add to the session etiquette thread on the ITrad forum. It rather surprised me as I’ve never actually seen you at a session. Are you getting down to TO to play instead? :confused:

52

I agree with DJM. I think the link with the War pipes is tenuous.

There always seems to be a desire to make traditions ‘ancient.’ In truth, most of the music we play on the pipes is only two or three hundred years old.

The Northumbrian bagpipe traces its ancestry to the French bellows-blown musette de cour, so it is easy imagine the long French-Irish alliance created a lot of exchange between the two countries.

Furthermore, the Uilleann chanter is closer to an early oboe than to a War pipe chanter, which again suggests a link to the continent.

Its chanter is a close cousin to the original baroque oboe which developed into the modern concert oboe. Older-style uilleann pipes and baroque oboes have some similar dimensions and geometry, and their reeds are made the same way.

David Daye
http://www.daye1.com/pc_intro.html >

I think the Irish makers must have been looking to replace the banned war pipes, but their inspiration probably came from outside Ireland.

53

Hi, Janice. I’m not much for sessions (yet). Mostly I’m in TO with Debbie Quigley. Maybe I’ll step out someday when I can meet my own standards …

For references there’s not much. I would suggest starting with Brendan Breathnach’s writings available from NPU. Other input I have is from a Canadian video from Seabright Productions called “The Pipes, The Pipes Are Calling”, as well as various NPU articles here and there, some of the slide shows presented at Chris Langan Weekends, and my own musings.

As for acada .. acdementa .. addictamics … I don’t know nuthin’ bout that stuff, and don’t keep track of all the hornswaggle I wade through. A lot of the Scottish stuff that is written is VERY ethnocentric, and not always reliable, and I fear that this may be what Mr. Vallely used as his sources. Perhaps Pat Hutchison might be able to give you some leads re. documentation (no, I don’t have an address for him on hand), but this is very much in his area of study.

Sorry I can’t be of much more help.

djm

54

If you’re gonna question the validity of any academic information (which happens all the time in academia) then ya gotta give sources to support your argument, and those same sources should be academic in nature not just "I saw a slide show…and this is what I think, and maybe you should talk to Pat Hutchinson etc.. You are, after all, entitled to your opinion (this is the internet after all, you can believe whatever you want to believe and say whatever you want to say without backing up what you say!). Check my earlier post…Not only is the book I quoted from a respected academic publisher (Cork University Press), F. Vallely was the editor. The actual entry was written by Eilis Ni Shulleabhain.
And thanks for the recommendation, I am aware of Brendan Breathnach’s scholarly contributions…

I highly recommend you read O’Neill’s book…for anyone interested in Irish trad and particularly in the Uilleann pipes it makes for a fascinating read. (I got it on Jerry O’Sullivan’s recommendation).

How often do you get down to TO? I haven’t heard you play in two years…can you get through a tune yet in time without stopping? I know Debbie’s a great teacher and I bet that she’s really helped you along in that department.

55

.(well Brianc seems to have mastered the pronounciation,well done!! )
– Liam

…

Thanks, Liam. I owe it all to repetition. :wink:

This is a fun thread.

And it rained again today. :boggle:

56

Are you uncomfortable with my agressive debateing style? I’ll try to use more smiley faces from now on. :smiley: But being a ‘woman of a certain age’ I haven’t time to mince words any more. :smiley: :smiley:

It’s hard to come up with all of the dosh it takes to keep a band outfitted so ya take the gigs when you can get them. Cultural sensitivity aside.

And let’s be honest, all of these ‘cultural’ festivals are in it for the money anyway. :smiley: :smiley:

57

And so my comment about pretenders. :smiley: :smiley:

58

Oh, we are cheeky aren’t we. The Great Pipes are in your blood or they are not. Some say it might be a genetic marker of some kind.

Kilts in saffron are thought by some to be a poke in the ribs to the British military and a thumbed nose at QE One’s law against the very Irish wearing of the saffron. But aside from that, kilts in tweeds and solid colors are seen in other Irish cultural areas such as danceing.

I am drawn to the ceremony of the Piob Mhor and the wearing of the kilt, as uncomfortable as it is, is a big part of the tradition for which I have great respect.

:smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

59

Unfortunately, competition is firmly with us. A fine young Piob Mhor musician was not allowed to play with the Chieftains in concert here recently because he hasn’t competed and has only a grade IV rateing. A grade I scottish piper got the job and botched it royal.

60

No, you don’t, actually. Just because someone has some letters after their name doesn’t mean squat, and since I am not a member of such establishment means I am not a slave to their rules. You will probably find that neither O’Neill or Vallely even acknowlegde that there are pipes of any kind outside of Ireland and Scotland, and that’s enough for me know that their range is too limited and self-justifying. By not acknowledging the history of bellows-blown pipes in any country outside of Ireland or Scotland one doesn’t have to explain why those show up long before UPs or NSPs, etc. Who is Eilis Ni Shulleabhain, and what is her qualification to be quoted, and what, if any, is her proof, or is it all just supposition, which makes her no more justified than me?

I’ve read references to Liverpool smallpipes. There’s probably a whole history of bellows-blown pipes that lies waiting to be discovered outside of just Ireland and Scotland. I have even seen suggestions that the French got the idea of bellows-blown pipes from the Moors in Spain, which might explain the Arabesque stylings of early musettes, but also opens the possibility that bellows-blown pipes came from the Middle East. Since you are an academic I’m sure you have investigated bellows-blown pipes in the Middle East and know all about it. :slight_smile:

djm