Gamme Ancienne?

Irish Flute
1

Just wondering if anyone can shed some light on this musical scale, referred to as gamme ancienne, or mode de Carnac, or mode Vannetais, in the videos below with Breton flute players Sylvain Barou and Jean Michel Veillon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G25lpVYQL0g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RFxz514XD4

I’m especially curious about the scale of the flute they are using. I would like to try making one for myself, probably using the reamers and bore profile I use for my F flutes, but with a different tone hole matrix, but before I start drilling holes and wasting wood I’d like to get a better understanding of the musical scale.

Any insights would be much appreciated!

2

I’m still holding out hope that some of our Breton members might wander by and take a shot at this, but in the mean time I’ve been trying to listen carefully to all the recordings I can find of Jean Michel Veillon playing his gamme ancienne flute (in F) to see if I can just work out the scale myself.

There is another good YouTube video of JMV playing this flute here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mG4FDv0GqI

There is also a clear picture of this flute alongside what appears to be a regular F flute, 1 minute 42 seconds into this video. The positioning and relative alignment of the tone holes gives some nice clues:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yJ2tgn9bgA

So, my current best guess is that this flute is in Phrygian mode, with an all holes closed note of F. I think the scale is as follows (with “x” denoting closed tone hole, “o” denoting open tone hole, and embouchure to the left):


xxx xxx F Tonic
xxx xxo F# flat 2nd
xxx xoo G# flat 3rd
xxx ooo Bb 4th
xxo ooo C 5th
xoo ooo C# flat 6th
ooo ooo Eb flat 7th

This would allow you to play tunes in the following modes, among others. (Note: I attempted to align the symbols below, using the code feature, which is likely futile. “S” means semitone, “T” means tone, “3b” means flat 3rd, etc. Hopefully, this is comprehensible to someone. Oh, and sorry for about randomly interchanging my sharps and flats in a way that is probably annoying for anyone who knows their music theory. :blush: )

F Phrygian mode:
                       S  T  T  T  S  T   T
                      1 2b 3b  4 5 6b 7b  1
                      F F# G# Bb C C# Eb  F

C Hypophrygian:
                     S  T  T S  T  T  T	
                    C C# Eb F F# G# Bb C

Bb Dorian:
                     T S T  T  S T  T 
                    1 2 3b 4  5 6  7b 1 
                    Bb C C#Eb F F# G# Bb

Bb Pentatonic minor:
                     T+S  T T T+S  T
                    1   3b 4  5  7b 1
                    Bb  C# Eb F  G# Bb


Eb aeolian
                     T S T   T T  S  T
                   1  2 3b 4   5 6b 7b 1  
                   Eb F F# G# Bb C  C# Eb

This is just my best guess for now, and I know how to make a flute in this tuning, so I might give it a try. I do wonder if there are any cross fingered notes that might open up more possibilities though. For example, is there a way to cross finger a major 3rd (i.e., A) and get Phrygian dominant mode (aka Hijaz)?

Well, perhaps with these pointers someone with better ears than me can listen to some of the recordings and see if this makes any sense. Or even better, maybe someone who has detailed knowledge of Breton music can chime in.

Thanks!

3

https://scontent.fvlc7-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/465907734_8862087407176247_557682939120355953_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=833d8c&_nc_ohc=B0doCmJiLO8Q7kNvgE-gJ3N&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fvlc7-1.fna&_nc_gid=AGlSF19m-wUrA7_a7w090AZ&oh=00_AYBHbr6RWl64uj6SuEe3JdIgggwQeVFxyeQ3pz7znFiiyg&oe=673A74C9

4

I think I made at least one critical error in my analysis of the scale above. Specifically, I think the F# should be a G. This changes how things come out a lot and it makes more sense with data I have seen in the literature regarding frequency of various modes in Breton tunes.
So, here is another try. Hopefully with a few less errors. Still a work in progress though.

I think the notes on this flute, from bottom to top, are F, G, G#, Bb, C, C#, Eb.

These are the same notes as the G# major scale, so we could say that G# is the parent major scale.

G# A# B# C# D# E# G

G# Bb C C# Eb F G
1-2-3-4-5-6-7

The notes are not laid out on the flute in the normal way though. Instead, they are rotated so that the 6th degree of the major scale (F) is the flute’s bell note.
This gives the following intervals, which is the aeolian mode.

T S T T S T T == aeolian mode

So if you use the flute’s bell note as the tonic then you can play tunes in F aeolian mode. According to some papers I read, these tunes exist in Breton music, but are not especially common.

F G G# Bb C C# Eb F
T S T T S T T
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

But here is where it gets more convincing. If you use Bb as the tonic then you can play Bb dorian tunes, and, more importantly, Bb hypodorian tunes, which range from the F below, which is the 5th of the Bb dorian scale and the flute’s bell note.

Bb C C# Eb F G G# Bb
T S T T T S T
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

Hypodorien tunes are extremely common in Breton music (~30%), and hypodorien mode is the most common of all modes in Vannetais tunes (~33%).
So I think this is the strong motivation for this flute design! It also seems consistent with the names Sylvain Barou gave to the tuning.

The flute also gives you access to the following other modes

G# Ionian (common in Breton music) with a range of a couple of extra steps below the tonic.

G# Bb C C# Eb F G G#
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

Bb Dorian (already discussed above)

C Phrygian and C hypophrygian (ranging from G, which is the 5th of the C phrygian scale, below). Both are both quite common modes in Breton tunes and even more common in Vennetais tunes.

C C# Eb F G G# Bb C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

C# Lydian
Eb Mixolydian

F Aeolian (already discussed above)

G Locrian … supposedly quite common in Breton tunes (7%) and Vennetaises (13%)

So, this seems more promising to me, but I’m still keen to hear from anyone with real experience in this area.

5

Following this thread with interest, but no useful experience.

To be pedantic, it would be clearer to call this the Ab major scale:

Ab Bb C Db Eb F G

The Aeolian mode starting on F would be F G Ab Bb C Db Eb, the Dorian mode starting on Bb would be Bb C Db Eb F G Ab, etc.

6

Thank you Tunborough! That definitely helps to clean things up.

So, here is the next aspect of these flutes that I am curious about. Both Jean Michel Veillon and Sylvan Barou have one extra key on their flutes, but interestingly, they don’t have it in the same place!

JMV has a single key located where a C key would be on a D major flute. It sharpens the note fingered xoo ooo. And maybe has another function for higher notes?

In this case it appears to allow the note E to be added to the scale. I’ve been very curious about what this additional note allows him to play, so let’s have a go at figuring it out.

E adds a major 3rd to the flute’s C phrygian mode, giving access to the phrygian dominant scale, or Hijaz, or Freygish scale. This sounds very useful right away!

E adds a major 7th added to the flute’s F aeolian mode, giving access to the harmonic minor scale. This also sounds useful . It is a little like the Hungarian minor or Gypsy scale, but you would also need a sharp 4th (i.e. B) for that.

E adds a sharp 4th to the flute’s Bb dorian mode, giving access to Ukrainian Dorian #11 or Romanian minor scale or Arabic Nikriz.

E adds a sharp 5th to the Ab major scale, making it an augmented major.

OK, so I can see why JMV chose that additional key! :thumbsup:

Sylvan Barou appears to have a single key on his flute located where a Bb key would be on a D major flute. So it sharpens the note fingered xxo ooo.

In this case it appears to allow the note D to be played. In my analysis I’m continuing the assumption of a flute with a bell note of F, even though Sylvain’s flute is a half step down in E. So what does this additional D note give access to?

D would add a sharp 4th to the Ab major scale, giving access to Ab lydian mode. This mode is rare in Breton music, but there are a few examples of lydian and hypolydian tunes. But many Polish folk songs are in lydian mode, and it is used in Jazz.

D would add a major 6th to the F aeolian scale, giving you access to F dorian mode. Dorian tunes are common.

D would add a major 3rd to the Bb dorian scale, giving you access to Bb mixolydian.

I haven’t been through all the possibilities, but this key sounds useful too, but in a very different way to the one JMV chose. With both these keys and flute like this would appear to be extremely versatile. :thumbsup: