I think I already conceeded that faster != better.
Exactly, just a jumble of..nothing, for whom the cap fits and we all know a few don’t we 
I’m trying to picture the speed in a session Peter would consider very fast 
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Being very, very good at something skews your viewpoint. I’m one (or at least was) of the best programmers in the world. My team won the World Programming Championship back in the 80s. To me, programming was like breathing, and it seemed to me that with a little effort, anyone could be a decent programmer.
Then I taught programming to college undergraduates for a few years. Young, bright, motivated kids with plenty of time to devote to learning.
Turned out, even for the above-average student, programming is not so easy to learn.
Oh, it wasn’t impossible. I’d say anyone of average intelligence can learn to be a decent programmer. But will they master it in six months of part-time effort? No. Will they ever be as good as I was? For most people, no. For whatever reason, I’m blessed with the right tools to be an exceptional programmer.
So while I respect Peter enormously, I think his view on this topic is a little skewed by his own tremendous skills and experience. And because of self-selection, this skewing tends to be pervasive in the traditional music scene. For example, it’s common wisdom that everyone can and should learn tunes by ear. However, about half of the adult population is tone deaf, and about a quarter of the population cannot even distinguish between two notes a semi-tone apart. Sure, all the session regulars have no problem learning by ear, but that’s not because everyone can do it. It’s because the ones who can’t have been weeded out.
My point is that if you’re new to the music you need to take the advice and wisdom from the “wise old men” with a bit of salt. Understand that these are often the people with best skills and the best experience for the music, and recognize that you don’t have to (and probably won’t) measure up to their expectations.
– Scott
Mitch at OzWHistles has conveniently put a few bits on-line I would not consider very fast while still very acceptable : reel and jig .
I wouldn’t consider Seamus Ennis’ clip above very fast either, it really doesn’t need to be if you have rhythm and lift.
Regular expressions in a whistle discussion?
You need to write a tune entitled All your base are belong to us.
Quote:
Well, I think you answered yourself Peter ol’ chap. No longer should you be puzzled over the phrase “session speed”, especially when used by US players. We just play the tunes faster in session.
No, it shows there no such thing as ‘sessionspeed’ because this shows that while some people play ridiculously fast, others prefer not to.
Peter, I think what Wanderer was getting at is just that the expectations of listeners and players alike are that diddley-dee needs to be very fast to be good - and for that we can thank (on a - literally- accelerating curve as we move through time) the likes of The Bothy Band, De Danann, Altan, Dervish, etc., since that flat-out group sound is what many folks are first exposed to and wind up trying to emulate in their playing in a group context. The pace and approach to tunes as played in Kitty’s kitchen is something many are likely rarely exposed to in most places (hereabouts included).
Personally, I have the toughest time playing reels well either fast or slow(er), as I seem to want to ‘swing’ many of them to the point they almost sound like hornpipes, or fluctuate between that and more flat-out playing (depending on the tune and the instrument - pipes, whistle or flute). The easiest way for me to come to grips with them is to start playing it as a slow reel, get a feel for the ‘music’ of the tune, experiment with variations, and then gradually speed it up until I reach the point where all that musicality starts to fall apart, pushing it a bit farther each time or just leaving the speed alone, depending on how I’ve got the tune in my head. With greater speed it eventually starts to become a different tune of course, exhibiting an entirely different character and appeal (or not) all its own, but it can also just get ridiculous and mechanical and the tune becomes a parody of itself, as often happens in sessions where someone starts it too fast.
Mark
Peter, you really ought to get out more.
Anyway all this discussion of how fast sessions are or ought to be is a diversion from the original point. Um, what was it again?
Oh yeah I think some of this has to do with the age at which you take up your first instrument and something to do with physical tension. I’ve seen many enthusiastic people of 40 and over take up Irish music on a first instrument at the school I used to teach at, and heard quite a few of them complain that after a few years’ hard work, speed just wasn’t coming to them. And I’m not talking about anything I would call remotely fast. Others didn’t complain, but… it all seemed like such hard work. After a few years of this teaching I got to the stage where I would try hard to disabuse adult beginners of any expectations they might have before accepting them as fiddle students.
On the other hand those that have played other instruments, especially as children, do much better. I don’t know what it’s all about - neural pathways established in childhood, the adult’s thinking mind interfering with the body, or what. You wouldn’t think that the whistle could cause people problems but it can.
Another thing to consider, apart from chronic tension that settles upon us with the stresses of life, is the general temporary level of tension that our workaday existence imposes on us. I remember fondly what would happen to me, back in my fiddle playing days, after a week of sessions at a festival - or even a weekend bash with the chance to play in a relaxed but stimulating atmosphere for 10 or 15 hours over a couple of days. All the systems would wake up, the cares of the working week would melt away, and I could play what seemed like three times faster and better than in real life, surprising myself and others.
Ok… so that explains the Mountain Dew obsession I have noticed on this site. Its all about speed…
There are a lot of people caught up in the idea that it takes forever to learn to play in sessions. So they go to “slow sessions” with the hopes that if they get 1bpm faster each time, then 45 years down the road, they’ll be able to play in “real” session. While the slow practice idea is really important, at some point you just need to take the leapor you’ll second-guess yourself out of ever getting there.
Don’t be afraid of sessions. If you’re not nearly up to it, go to listen to get a feel for the music. If you’re getting closer to it, play quietly and try to match the rhythm of the other players (assuming that rhythm is good). You’ll get there if you’re willing to listen.
I used to teach guitar, and I found that most of the players who “couldn’t get it” mostly couldn’t get it because of self-defeating attitudes.
I think that’s right. I don’t think people go to sessions enough to just listen. It’s really important and if you are there week after week for a few months, listening and watching the scene, chances are you’ll have a sense of how people behave and treat each other in that session. It seems inconceivable to me how someone could show up at a session for the first time to play. If someone says “I am not interested in listening to the music, I only want to play it.” They aren’t ready for the music, let alone sessions.
Usually all they want to play is The Butterfly and go home.
The phrase is definitely iambic, and sounds like it’d fit into jig time
I think I went to session for six months before I ever joined in a tune on the “relaxed” sunday session, and I was way back in the back, and not in the circle of musicians. Three or four months later I was asked to sit a little closer. It was still probably six to nine months before I was asked to play up on the stage at the Wednesday session at the Mucky Duck. (yeah, it happens on a stage…see my earlier post about sessions being treated as “performances” in a lot of places in the US).
If you’re just eager to whip out your instrument and play, this kind of thing can be frustratingly annoying. If you instead take the attittude that you’re there to absorb the music, and get to know the players, I think it helps…and is the better attitude about going to a session anyway.
I’m starting to understand that sessions, at least here in the U.S., vary just as widely from place to place as the culture does.
I hope to one day experience a wider variety of both, even if only to listen.
If any of you ever happen to be in central Arkansas at the right time and place to catch one of our sessions ( http://www.arcelts.com/acms1/sessions.htm ), please don’t hesitate to join us. New players of all levels are routinely and warmly welcomed.
Now lest this post stir any kind of controversy–which is not why I posted it–I am not saying our session is in any way superior to anyone else’s, and I’m not trying to hold it up as any kind of model to follow, either. It’s just our way of doing things, and it seems to work well, at least for us.
My only other experience of established sessions has been in Denver…which was also a very warm and welcoming group of very fine and friendly musicians. It has been my great pleasure to hear them play, and to play with them some as well, on two different occasions, and I hope someday to return to renew the friendships that I made there.
(I say “established” sessions because we did have weekly sessions going when I lived in Texarkana, but I helped found that session and was often the only melody instrument, so I can’t really count that.)
Wherever you session, and however it may work, and whether you play, listen, or (as I do) do some of both, I hope you enjoy the music and the companionship as much as I do.
Best wishes to all,
–James
FWIW, Just like to share my own experience re this issue and playing at sessions generally.
It would be generally accepted that as we learn, develop and hone our skills as musicians, we constantly revise, evaluate and make changes
to get where we want to be. For me then, the question about where I want to be with the music I play is the most important.
It is very much a personal journey of discovery that brings with it all the emotions, frustrations, highs, lows etc.
Numerous experiences playing in bands gigs / concerts etc, playing in sessions, writing & recording etc, are all just part of that personal journey of discovery.
So simple answer is this, If your goal / aim is to play at sessions / at speed!, then perhaps at some point you will. You can also accept then, that there is always goin to be somebody else there who is faster, better, different, slower, less musical, whatever!. (Is that enough for you?)
What also happens sometimes through session playing, is that musicians meet together, get to know each other and through time realise they want to take things further and form groups bands etc. Perhaps what is goin down at sessions just ain’t enough for them, they need to discover more, so they start recording / gigging either inidividually, or as a group and so the journey goes on and on and on.
As far as playing tunes at particular tempos, styles or ornamentation etc, It’s completely up to you. If you happen to get musicians together who can follow your ideas and style and who are willing, then go for it.
Likewise you might like someone else’s ideas and start to share.
So for beginners, my suggestion would be to recognise that it really is your own journey with music that’s important.
Listen to the music, practice the tunes, create the versions, own the tunes, you are part of the tradition.
Find musicians, get together play your music with them and you play their music, discover and enjoy. (Even if it has to be over the net).
Go to sessions (but don’t depend on them!) if you can, join in and eventually steal musicians from there, anything to help you get to where you want to be. If you get a band together and it doesn’t work, steal from other bands, it’s ok every one does it!
Apologies for ranting, hope this particular post is of interest to somebody.
Cheers
Pkev
I love this thread!
The Tin Leprechaun is whatever you want it to be - a quaint garden gnome on your front lawn, a kindly Yoda-esque presence on your shoulder or a ruthless task-master who’se back and heels are all you manage to get glimpses of. For such a simple little thing, the whistle posesses more life-dynamic than any other instrument I’ve encountered. Impatience is not a good idea (he said, glancing at the forarm/elbow brace nursing the damage inflicted by his most recent compulsive practice stint) Us old blokes really do have to remember to age gracefully
Dazling, lightning-fast passages of ITM launched at us by top-shelf master grade, professional assault musicians in unbelievably bewildering time signatures is mandatory for hired guns - it keeps the competition off their pitch long enough to see them past the next appointment at the remedial massage clinic. I salute them! BUT if you should try to dance to that stuff - make sure you have a team of parramedics handy to untangle your limbs and get you into treatment -stat- after the dust and broken furniture settles.
I allways like to feel my foot tapping when I go to a session - If it gets too fast, the vibrations create a standing wave and spill my beer!
I probably should go out more, you’re right there.
Part of the original; point was that Irish music is supposedly played at ‘sessionspeed’ which according to the original point is faster than any other musical genre and something C&F unattainable members. So making the point that if your session is faster than any other musical genre, there’s something wrong there, has some relevance.
Irish music wasn’t made for sessions, sessions are at times a pleasant way for socialising and they can be musically satisfying the odd time. If it’s your goal to just be part of the group maybe you’re into this for the wrong reasons. That is what I think.
But you’re right about middle aged people who think they can pick up a whistle and tutor book with high expectations and without ever coming near a traditional setting where music is played well.
Things take time, immersion and commitment and that was my initial point as well.
Please elaborate on this.
What would you like to see elaborated on? I think it’s a good idea to let go of the notion the highest thing in Irish music is to sit in on a session. It isn’t, it’s a way of socialising and can be good fun, sometimes really great music emerges on the fly. But overall the noise of the drinkers is just too intrusive, pubs are not the most conductive environment for playing good music. While playing with other people requires specific skills that are good to develop I also think playing sessions often can have a limiting impact on your playing. It’s a part of playing Irish music these days I suppose but it’s not the purpose or the last word in Traditional music.