I am having a flute idea party, and everone at the C & F flute forum is invited to attend. Here are the details: What to bring: a flute idea. No idea is too outlandish or bizarre. It also could be a desire, that is, something that you would like to have with regard to flutes and flute playing. It could also be a question. When is the party? It starts right now Where is the party? Right here online at C & F
First idea: Flutes with cylindrical bores that are pitched lower than low D are difficult to play because of the larger distances between the tone holes. However, it is possible to make a flute with two thumb holes and four finger holes. They would be fingered with the thumb, index, and ring fingers of both hands. Using this technique large flutes in C and Bb could be made. The thumbs are usually used to support the flute, but it is possible to rock the thumbs, thereby opening the thumb hole and still giving support to the flute.
I’m curious about the finger spread on a C or Bb or A flute with a cylindrical bore.
Why is it possible for whistle makers to do a low C, Bb, or A, like Alba has done already, that has a manageable finger spacing, using the piper’s grip, and not be able to do that on the simple system cylindrical bore flute? Isn’t it the same except for the end that is blown?
Somehow, I don’t think many would care to adopt the thumb approach to fingering. The piper’s grip is very easy to master, and transfer to the flute, don’t you think?
I got the idea of the two thumbs design from a Vietnamese notch flute that I own. I agree that it would be a little difficult to get use to, but the idea works very well.
To answer the question about the Alba low whistles, I have never played one of the whistles, but I assume that they have a conical bore, which allows for finger hole compression that is not possible on a cylindrical bore flute. If you try to make a Bb flute with a cylindrical bore, you will soon understand the problem. I have a low C cylindrical bore flute that I can play, but it isn’t very comfortable, and the finger holes are even larger than on the low D flute. I think that Bb or A is out of the question for the average hand unless a different fingering method is accepted.
I’m still working on the flute armrest idea. My current design involves a strap that goes around your waist with lots of velcro. I haven’t decided on whether to use PVC pipe or steel rebar for the main arm supports. Any suggestions?
I checked with Stacey about her Alba whistles, and she says they are not conical, but parallel bores. She also said, that it might have something to do with the diameter, and that she hasn’t tried to make a flute lower than D.
But she manages to make the whistles lower than D with manageable finger stretches for the pipers grip, as I stated before. So, would smaller diameter tubing let you use a shorter finger stretch?
OK Doug,
How about flush panels that could be slid with your finger to accurately set a given hole as a half hole for a song. They would only slide out far enough to give the perfect half-hole note.
Different shapes. Why straight? Want a low Bb with a nice third octave? Have as many elbows as a trumpet. Could really cut down finger spread.
Flute head for a trumpet?
Different shapes other than round for a taper. Start: round tube of brass, End: ellipse piece of tubing (great for A flat whistle.) Might replace the wedge! I think that Ralph Sweet told me about some fifes made of square tubing that he had played!
Two keyed (as in Bb and D) double headed fife. Hey, some flutes have holes in the bottom for venting low D, why not put it to work?
Reuse military surplus 50 BMG barrels as fifes? It may have the same affects as the tipple dimples, and as vomitbunny states, it may help the notes shoot out faster. In addition the extra holes prevent them from being used for anything else.
Replacement flute or piccolo heads for all whistles! (especally the generations highest G whistle!:twisted: )
If these make you wonder or laugh then my job is done.
Barry, the I.D. of the pipe that I normally work with is 20-21 mm. I do have a low D PVC whistle that was made in India, and it has an I.D. of 26 mm. I notice that the finger spacing on this whistle is less than on my low D flute, mainly because the bore diameter is larger on the whistle. It is becoming clear to me that I could make a low C or an Eb flute if I could find the appropriate, off-the-shelf larger bore pipe. That is on my list of things to experiment with after the holidays. I must admit, however, that I am having some difficulty integrating all of the other ideas that have been submitted. But thanks for the ideas.
Instead of half-holing certain notes could one have two holes side by side, one smaller one bigger, and cover both for one note and one only for the semi tone up, as you find on many recorders?
To bring finger spacing closer for low flutes create an inner conical taper on the PVC tube by pouring in epoxy resin (flute body must be in one part only for this, ie. two part flute not three part).
This is hard! Flutes have been around for so long that most things have been tried. But here goes a: Wah Wah flute, putting a spring in the tuning slide so that the tuning can be altered by a thumb lever during a note- great for tremeloes and serious note bending!
Oh I know it’s just grafting a swannee whistle on to a flute but its the weekend and my brain is slow.
Hans’s idea of using double holes like on a recorder is an obvious one that I have thought about and have experimented with. It works well for the recorder, but my attempts to do the same thing with a flute was not successful. I constructed a low D flute with the double holes for finger holes five and six, like on a recorder. However, in order to make this work pitch-wise, the finger holes need to be quite small. The played notes that resulted from this two-hole configuration were weak and airy, more like whistle notes and not acceptable for a flute tone, in my opinion.
Let’s put this myth to rest (that the finger spread on a Bb flute is less manageable than that of a similar Low Bb whistle): Stu, G., somebody with a standard R&R derived Bb flute, please measure the span of the first three and last three holes - Measure from the top edge of the first hole (closest to the embouchure), to the bottom edge(closest to the foot) of the third hole. Reapeat for the right hand holes.
Ditto someone with a Low Bb cylindrical whistle.
I suggest these distances on the Bb flute will be around the same or less than that of a well tuned whistle
Indeed, double holes are fine for fipple flutes, but that’s where it ends I’m afraid. You could probably tweak a little more power out of the ones on your standard flute, but as you’ve seen those dinky double holes are about as anemic as a half holed Eb note on a D flute. You have to remember that back in the day, many of the folks who made top recorders also made the better flutes of the time, so don’t think they didn’t try double holes on those flutes before settling on the Eb Key.
In thinking of new approches, here are some tradeoffs to keep in mind:
The bigger the total volume of the cavity (above the fingers), the slower the note starts and stops. That is why whistles can play faster tunes easier.
The louder the flute, the more difficult it is to play, e.g. a Pratten is harder to play than a baroque with small finger holes and blow holes.
The bigger the holes the less forking works.
There is a plot in “Exploring Music” where the speed of air coming over the blow hole is measured and the note being played is recorded with professional players. It is surprising that notes vs blow speed are almost the same for all players. Also along that line, when you think F#, you automatically blow the right hardness. Experiment: think Anat and finger Enat, it does not work.
Because (explained in the thread why 8 holes and not 6 on a keyless flute on page 1) flutes, recorders and whistles are unlike other wind instruments in that they couple music out the blow hole and the end, a horned end on a flute would take a lot of experimenting.
The biggest difference between the sound of the Celtic (me and Hans like to say that) flute, i.e. the flute tapered on the end; and the Bohem flute with the flute tapered on the wrong end, is due to just that. Some difference is also due to hole size. This is boren out by the comments on the ‘colonial flutes’ , flutes made of silver and sent to arid parts of the Empire during the mid 1800. They were silver and shaped like simple system flutes.
Flute design history has always been guided by the material and methods of working the material, not only sound. Had they has delrin® from 1830 on, hard tell what flute people would be saying sounds the best today.
George Carlin has a skit that goes like this: People are stupid. He then goes on the delineate things he thinks are stupid that millions and whole cultures believe in. I cannot think of any right now except the one about the Christian Right believing that all people on earth are Jewish because all American Indians, Eskimos, Asians, and Europeans were drowned. All except Noah’s family. And he said that most of them wished they were dead, with all the animals, especially the alpacas and lamas. Anthropologist say it in a nicer why, to wit, people are not rational about things that have to do with feelings. Flute playing has to do with feelings.
The idea I have thought about is electronically opening and closing holes. Who knows enough about electronically opened holes to design one?
I just made my second ever PVC flute yesterday, and added both a c thumb hole and an Eb right pinky hole that rests comfortably on the side. It seems fairly easy to play. Now I’m trying to think of some way to make a poor man’s key for the PVC flute. I’m thinking something with a paper clip and a small wooden block glued on the outside. But what to make the key out of? Tin and a rubber pad?
I’d love to show up at a session with a fully keyed PVC flute just to see people’s reactions.. assuming it played relatively in tune that is..
Might replace the wedge! I think that Ralph Sweet told me about some fifes made of square tubing that he had played!