Doubling on Reeds

Irish Flute
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I’m just curious to know if anyone has strong feelings about pros/cons of flute players also playing reed instruments.

I’ve been working pretty hard on Irish flute for a few years, and feel I’ve made a lot of good progress. A few months ago, I started messing with a clarinet and xaphoon, and have really enjoyed both. But lately, my flute embouchure has gone all to Hell. Very frustrating!!

It took me a bit of time to start connecting the two, but I suspect they ARE connected. I did some research, and found this guy, who argues against doubling on flutes and reeds: http://www.larrykrantz.com/doubling.htm

Anyone out there playing flute and reeds?

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Crooked -
I tried it years ago with Boehm flute and alto sax in high school. Same experience as you, flute embouchure worsened, though some jazz guys seem to pull it off. So, of all things, I switched to tuba, and found no negative effect on my flute embouchure. Some time ago, I heard an interview with a jazz flutist on NPR who made the conscious decision NOT to play reeds so as to preserve the maximum quality in his attacks and releases in his flute playing. He said he was striving for the “purest” of tonal quality in his flute playing and felt playing reeds, for him, compromised that more than he was willing. So, I guess you can do both, but with some sacrifice, subtle or more obvious, to the flute embouchure, depending on the individual. Your choice. There maybe some techniques/exercises to lessen any negative effects. Perhaps a call to a music professor who doubles might yield some answers.
But then, if you really enjoy the reeds, why stop, life’s too short. Maybe the flute embouchure will recoup after some time playing both insturments.
Good Luck!

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Horn_(jazz_musician)

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I was told by a flute teacher when I was young and learning silver flute that I shouldn’t consider playing the piccolo because it would mess up my flute embouchure. What is “mess up”?

In my opinion, folk music players aren’t classical perfectionists. If there is some pinnacle of technique that someone hopes to reach, I can see the argument for not wanting to possibly obstruct their kung fu with different disciplines. If, on the other hand, you’re in it for the fun, then play what your heart wants to play.

I play many instruments. I’m good on most, great on one, and passable on the rest. I know that even switching back and forth between my Pratten(ish) and my Rudall(ish) slows my progress on my goal for the Rudall(ish) sound but I don’t care. I’m not playing Carnegie Hall anytime soon. :pint:

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Hey Charlie, that’s a very intersting subject-thanks for the link to Larry Krantz’s article on it. If you are like me-if I had the money and place to play them, I’d have a room full of instruments that I like!..maybe it’s fortunate that I don’t, now that I’ve read Mr Krantz’s ideas on the subject!

I got a bug about a year ago and picked up a couple of cheap cornets on Ebay, since I liked the sound in Jazz and such, so I decided I’d give them a try. Not easy, going from flute to cornet! That buzzing of the lips is just unnatural, and weird! Especially after playing the flute. Maybe it’s good I kind of lost interest, because playing cornet in an apartment isn’t always convenient, even with a mute. On the other hand, a flute can easily be played quietly, or loud, depending on what you want as you choose, and you don’t lose much in tone.

I didn’t notice any changes to my flute playing while dabbling in cornet, though it was brief and not a regular thing for me. But I can’t say it didn’t have an effect either. But considering what damage it might do to your flute embouchure, playing on any reed instrument as a double, I’d seriously consider dumping the double after reading Larry Krantz’s experiences. Granted, he’s only one guy, and that’s how it worked for him-so it’s not conclusive evidence, but…I’d give it some good thought if I were you now.

Recently I’ve started to make more progress in my flute embouchure and playing, though I don’t know why it happened, but I have been playing a bit more too. I certainly am thankful I’ve turned this corner, and wouldn’t want to set myself back now by doubling on something that might jeapordize it.

I did once think that my NAF (native american flute) playing seemed to help my transverse flute embouchure at the time. But I haven’t played the NAF’s much in a long time, so I don’t know if it really was so or not. But there’s no great pressure to the lips or face muscles when playing a NAF, so I’m inclined to think it can’t do any harm, anyway. They aren’t a clarinet, but if you get a nice low NAF, it sounds great too! Give 'em a try if you want to double-maybe it will help your flute playing instead of possibly hurting your embouchure, as suggested the clarinet might. It seems you might have discovered the temporary damage the clarinet has done to your embouchure already from what you’ve said. There’s no proof, but I’d trust your instincts on it though.

I’d be interested to hear other people’s experiences with this too.

Barry

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Hi,

Before taking up the flute about 2 years ago, I played the clarinet for about 10 years or so. When I began learning the flute, my teacher simply forbade me to play the clarinet as it would damage my embouchure. In retrospect, I think she was right and I find it better to focus on just one instrument. The clarinet embouchure is really tense, not just in the lips but also to some extent in the facial muscles. It also requires a strong bite :wink:.

Another classical flute teacher I know, who doubles on the clarinet, told me that while he could move from the flute to the clarinet without problem he found the other way around extremely hard and his tone on the flute would suffer.

If you really want to play the clarinet though, and just want to have fun with it, I’d suggest considering playing a weak reed strength on an open mouthpiece (fine for jazz and klezmer, not so good for classical music IMO). It would be easier to blow, require less tension and in the end do less harm to your flute embouchure.

The bottom line in my opinion: the clarinet and the flute require different and conflicting embouchures. If you play the flute, it’s much harder to double on the clarinet than it would be on the guitar or the fiddle.

Hope this helps,
Julien

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Great flute and sax-players:

Josie McDermott
Noel Sweeney
Michel Bonamy

There are many more… I just can’t think of them.

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LOTS of EXCELLENT players of jazz play both instruments. Just practice (TIME to practice, better said).

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Thanks, all. Mixed opinions, as I expected.

I know there are lots who do well with it — Rahsaan Roland Kirk was the example I already had in mind. I suspect that practice can surmount any such problem. But for me, it’s more a matter of how important the reeds are, (not very). It was only a lark, and I’ll keep my efforts focused on flute.

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You went the wrong way, Barry! (I’ll explain in a minute.) I’ve been playing flute for about two months but I make actual money playing brass instruments. I suppose I can’t comment on doubling ruining a good flute embouchure because I don’t have one yet. I can say that if I felt the flute playing was hurting my brass chops I’d, regretfully, ditch it in a heartbeat.

What I have found is that I can play trombone for an hour and pick up and play the flute with no problems. If I play flute for half an hour though, the effects will show if I pick up a trombone. If I have a gig or rehearsal coming up I will stay away from the flute for an hour and a half or so beforehand. I’ll be interested to see if this changes as my flute embouchure strengthens.

That said, the big band I play in has two sax players who double on flute. When I asked them if doubling presented any chops-related issues they just looked at me like I’d asked them something in Urdu. One of them said he’d never thought about it. However, he said, if he started thinking about it now and it messed him up he would be coming after me. :slight_smile:

A final note is that one of the flute players in my orchestra plays alto (tenor) horn in her Salvation Army band.

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In my experience and from listening to doublers in jazz, I’d say if you want a great flute sound, it’s very very difficult to do so and double on any other instrument. Some jazz greats like Eric Dolphy (alto, flute, bass clarinet), Joe Farrel (tenor, soprano, flute) and Lew Tabakin (tenor, flute) were awesome on all instruments–I heard Joe and Lew live and they were phenomenal. But most jazz doublers don’t get a great sound on flute; it’s more of an airy loose jazz sound.

If you are satisfied with your tone when doubling, no problem. I know I don’t have the talent or time to play any other instrument than flute. I find enough challenge in playing both the wood Irish flute and the silver Boehm flute. I don’t even like to spend much time playing whistle for the same reasons.

Jason

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Thanks, Jason. (Very nice clips!).

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Thanks for the kind words. Cheers.

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I’m glad to hear Eric Dolphy mentioned. A musician like him comes around once every many years; not many are truly great on each of several instruments.

And Denny mentioned Rahsaan Roland Kirk and Yusef Lateef – Yusef is generally thought one of the great jazz flute players, and not only does he play tenor, he also plays OBOE. Talk about three things requiring very different embouchures! I recently acquired the first album he played oboe on, and you can tell that it took him a year or two to get a decent sound on it. Benny Maupin is another who plays flute and reeds, although I don’t find his flute sound that solid.

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I see what you mean, Mike. But what I was referring to is not going straight from one instrument right to the other-I meant more that coming from being used to playing flute, the cornet buzzing embouchure is very odd to one who hasn’t experienced it before (or remembered-I did play Sousaphone a long time ago!). Though it did seem to help knowing a bit about embouchure to figure out how to play the cornet, buzzing aside. Who knows, I might pick it up now and then and try it again-always fun to play a different instrument. Don’t want it messing with my flute embouchure though! If it did, I’d stop it right there if I thougt it did too, like you say you would in reverse with your trombone as primary play, and flute secondary.

It seems from what others are saying here about the main topic that yes, some can double on flute if you are a reed player, but not always to a high level on both, unless you are very dedicated, talented or blessed both ways. Just depends on what you really want too-desire can also take you a long way. No harm in trying-it’s not like it’s irreversable if you don’t get along and it messes with your flute embouchure!

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Johnny Almond

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Back in my (miss-spent?!?) youth I played in pit bands for musical theatre productions. Often the woodwind books required 4-5 instruments. Typically, such combinations as flute/picc., oboe, clarinet and alto sax, or clarinet, bass clar., tenor sax, bassoon would require rapid instrument changes in a matter of only a few measures. Beyond figuring out how to keep the reeds wet and ready to go, the real skill was in the embouchure changes. I actually spent many hours practicing playing, putting one horn down and picking up another and playing immediately it in order to master the changeovers. Interestingly, changing fingerings never caused the least bit of problem. Good woodwind doublers play very well indeed, but for me the desire to play one instrument at a higher level brought me to the point where I stopped doing that work.

My point is, you can practice making the changeovers as an isolated skill, and get very good at it.

Also, FWIW, I always found that practicing piccolo was very beneficial to my flute playing, and I know teachers who would agree. IMHO it helps to create focus and flexibility for the flute embouchure. I find that playing simple system flutes with their smaller embouchure holes and shallower risers have a similar effect on modern Boehm flute playing.

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Say hello to Peaches for me.


Rob

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I have played all the saxes and clarinets for many years as well as silver flutes. One of the big things is getting your set ups right..ie your horn, mouthpiece and reed..Once you aren’t fighting those doubling becomes a lot easier. Having good instruments in perfect order takes a lot of the pain away. For example I think I’ve played bari sax and bass clarinet about once this year but I know within ten minutes I’ll be comfortable because my equipment and concept are sound.

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I have a friend who played on a cruise ship for a year. Woodwinds are required to double on sax, flute, and clarinet, as I recall–she was a sax major but was passable on the other two. I have to agree with the majority of the posts, though–I can’t imagine you’d get fantastic sound on both reeds and flute without a good amount of time spent on both, but this just goes to show that, particularly in the jazz world, such doubling is Expected.

As for brass playing, when I took my brass techniques class we progressed from small brass to big brass (trumpet-horn-trombone), and I found it substantially easier each time…whether from the size of the mouthpiece or from the simple fact that I was getting more used to buzzing my lips, I’m not sure! But generally, the bigger the mouthpiece the looser the embouchure, and the easier for flute players to switch…flute players are actually pretty good candidates for switching to tuba if you have a fairly normal band of two trombones and fifty flutes…

Piccolo is generally an instrument you want to give to a flute player who has a fairly consistent embouchure. It can be especially good for flute players who have to firm up their embouchure a bit…on the other hand, it can be a really bad idea to give a piccolo to a flute player who already has a tight embouchure.

I played piccolo and flute in the wind orchestra at school this year, and I definitely noticed that it took a little while to ease into my flute playing if I’d been on piccolo a lot right before. For my recital, I played a Vivaldi piccolo concerto followed directly by a 12-minute flute piece; I just played some nice low long-tones backstage while the recital assistants were switching the music over and I was good to go. Another more ITM-related switch that bothers me is from whistle to flute. I think my biggest issue is just the shape of the Susato whistle mouthpiece; I might have to find a different whistle at some point!