Do I want a bouzouki or octave mandolin? (or cittern) ?

[jayjay]

@Paul Anderson

The generally held view is that an octave mandolin (in Europe it’s called an octave mandola) has a scale length of somewhere between 20 and 23 inches, whereas a bouzouki’s scale length is (usually) from 24 to 27 inches. As an example, I have a Foley bouzouki with a 26.5 inch scale length and a Freshwater OM with a 21.5 inch scale. I use the Freshwater strictly for playing tunes (melody) and I’ll flatpick or fingerpick the Foley for backing tunes and song accompaniment. To further confuse the issue (:-]) my Flatiron has a scale length of 23.5 inches and the label says it’s a 'zouk and the endblock says it’s an OM. The body size usually varies in relation to the length of the neck.

Nano, can you tell us what the scale lenth is on your cittern ? We’ll have the measurements then…

~Jj

[Nanohedron]

@jayjay

Thanks so very much Nano!

My pleasure. I made my choice because I really like that extra bass course, and the neck scale. Sound depends on the maker, of course, and that made my choice for me, too. As I mentioned, I prefer unison courses. I tried octave courses, and they don’t suit me. Others like them.

Now start practicing your responses to the baffled and curious:

-“No, not sitar. Cittern. C-I-T-T-E-R-N. CittERRRNN.”

-“Actually, it’s not a 'zouk, but a cittern. But a less confusing proper form of address is ‘gizmo’. It’s probably best to go with that.”

-“You could say it’s the missing link between mandolins and guitars.”

Stuff like that.

[jayjay]

@Nanohedron

My pleasure. I made my choice because I really like that extra bass course, and the neck scale. Sound depends on the maker, of course, and that made my choice for me, too. As I mentioned, I prefer unison courses. I tried octave courses, and they don’t suit me. Others like them.

Purely academicly (not having played) I could guess I’d like the low strings octaves, but the top 3 in unison.

Now start practicing your responses to the baffled and curious:

-“No, not sitar. Cittern. C-I-T-T-E-R-N. CittERRRNN.”

-“Actually, it’s not a 'zouk, but a cittern. But a less confusing proper form of address is ‘gizmo’. It’s probably best to go with that.”

-“You could say it’s the missing link between mandolins and guitars.”

Stuff like that. >

Heh heh… people use to always ask me what my mandolin was. My then guitar partner would joke stuff like ‘it’s an accordion’ … and people stood there dumbfounded, sort of believing him. I think they wanted to hear that it was a bal… balila… um… that Russian thing.

[Nanohedron]

@jayjay

Nano, can you tell us what the scale lenth is on your cittern ? We’ll have the measurements then…

~Jj

16¼ inches from nut to bottom fret. Shorter than I would have guessed.

[jayjay]

@Nanohedron

@jayjay

Nano, can you tell us what the scale lenth is on your cittern ? We’ll have the measurements then…

~Jj

16¼ inches from nut to bottom fret. Shorter than I would have guessed.

Hmm… my mandolin is just under 14 inches. I think I could get use to a cittern almost easier than an octave mandolin, and still have the affect… hmmm. It’s probably about the same as a mandola ? It’s the width of that extra course of strings… I’m kind of scared about. I have tiny hands and chording on anything bigger than a mando is very difficult, I have to pick and choose around a bit. Still…

[jayjay]

Nano, would you mind giving us the measurement for the width of your cittern’s neck, at the nut?

[Nanohedron]

@jayjay

@Nanohedron

@jayjay

Nano, can you tell us what the scale lenth is on your cittern ? We’ll have the measurements then…

~Jj

16¼ inches from nut to bottom fret. Shorter than I would have guessed.

Hmm… my mandolin is just under 14 inches. I think I could get use to a cittern almost easier than an octave mandolin, and still have the affect… hmmm. It’s the width I’m kind of scared about. I have tiny hands and chording on anything bigger than a mando is very difficult, I have to pick and choose around a bit. Still…

I have very small hands, myself. The neck width isn’t as wide as some guitars…let’s see…yep, 1 and 5/8" at top, 2 and 1/8" at bottom. Cumulative string tension is pretty great, though, so I don’t do much bar-chording.

[Unseen122]

@jayjay

@Unseen122

Surprised no one has asked yet, but do you intend to play melody or backing? Because of the shorter scale it is easier to play melody on an OM and due to the longer scale which increases sustain Bouzoukis are generally considered better for backing..

Precisely my angst with the Martin, I simply cant chord on it. I developed my lead skills ten times better than my chording, but I’m learning some nice crosspicking styles for backup & fill, and on the mandolin I am able to chord well enough. I think I’ll try them out at the shop and see what I like best, but it’s here that I’ll learn what is used more in the traditional sense. I don’t want to have to tune up to weird keys I can’t play, which has had me totally lost in jams before. I am not an instant transposer , so I just have to Think Mandolin.

Although, I have an OM which I tune to GDAD (usually) and use it for backing and if I want to play the melody I play my Mando which is in GDAE if I am not playing Flute or Whistle. I also use the tuning GDGD on my OM for songs that I know the chords for in D, but can’t sing them in D and capo up on the OM to play in B or whatever key the song is in.

Well, I keep forgetting about the handy gadget of a capo, since I have always played mandolin I wouldn’t think of using one… heh, heh. I suppose becoming familiar with capo (as I do on the Martin, but the intonation suffers) on a good OM will be my answer. I will want to experiement with the octave stringed couplets like the bouzouki apparently has. I dunno, mayb I’ll fall in love with some crazy 'zouk … … when at the music store.

In a traditional sense, you will find Bouzouki is used more often and used tuned to GDAD. The introduction of the Bouzouki to Irish music started in the '60s with players like Andy Irvine, Johnny Monyihan, and Donal Lunny. In the beginning they were all playing Greek style Bouzoukis (Bowl Back) and instead of using the standard Greek tuning of FCAD the tuned the lower two courses up to GDAD. There are two makers who are considered the “inventors” of the flat back Irish Bouzouki they would be Peter Abnett and Stephan Sobell. These were the fist makers to make what we now call an Irish Bouzouki at the request of the original players mentioned above.

So what is the advantage to GDAD for backing? This tuning sounds great when using open string drones. It is typical for Bouzouki players to play not chords but droney counter melodic lines which use the occasional chord and double stop. Since most tunes are in D, G, A, or there relative keys it is not that difficult to back most tunes without a capo because you have open strings tuned to the root note which can be used for drones. Personally I only use a capo for B minor. Players who use GDAE for backing typically strum like a Guitar player would. This is not the case all the time I have met players who don’t do that.

As for Citterns the extra course is used for a low string or a high string the choice is up to the player. The Low string would be tuned to either C or D depending on the players preferance, each has its own advantages and disadvantages. The high string can be tuned to b or a. I feel that a Cittern tuned to GDADA is the most versatile tuning because one can back using just like it is in GDAD, but when playing tunes you don’t have to strech or slide up to the a and b which makes tune playing easier. So if you want to play both tunes and backing that is probably the best option. What tuning do you use Nano?

[Nanohedron]

DGDAD, using GHS True Medium phosphor bronze-wound guitar strings. If I use regular Medium gauge, the bass course hasn’t enough tension and sounds “flobby”.

[jayjay]

@Nanohedron

I have very small hands, myself. The neck width isn’t as wide as some guitars…let’s see…yep, 1 and 5/8" at top, 2 and 1/8" at bottom. Cumulative string tension is pretty great, though, so I don’t do much bar-chording.

A whole 1/2 inch wider than my mandolin. I think it would be doable though, and I can imagine the tension would be incredible! I happen to have a feeling that higher tension instruments are more volatile, musically speaking>> and that makes no sense, I know.

[jayjay]

@Unseen122

…As for Citterns the extra course is used for a low string or a high string the choice is up to the player. The Low string would be tuned to either C or D depending on the players preferance, each has its own advantages and disadvantages. The high string can be tuned to b or a. I feel that a Cittern tuned to GDADA is the most versatile tuning because one can back using just like it is in GDAD, but when playing tunes you don’t have to strech or slide up to the a and b which makes tune playing easier. So if you want to play both tunes and backing that is probably the best option. What tuning do you use Nano?

Thank you Unseen, all that you contributed is very appreciated. I will study your suggestions more closely, with an open mind. I hope it’s not obnoxious for me to want to stick to fifths tunings, in any instrument ; bouzouki, OM, or cittern ? I"m just not a multi-instrumentalist musician like you talented folks here…

[Nanohedron]

@jayjay

@Unseen122

…As for Citterns the extra course is used for a low string or a high string the choice is up to the player. The Low string would be tuned to either C or D depending on the players preferance, each has its own advantages and disadvantages. The high string can be tuned to b or a. I feel that a Cittern tuned to GDADA is the most versatile tuning because one can back using just like it is in GDAD, but when playing tunes you don’t have to strech or slide up to the a and b which makes tune playing easier. So if you want to play both tunes and backing that is probably the best option. What tuning do you use Nano?

Thank you Unseen, all that you contributed is very appreciated. I hope it’s not obnoxious for me to want to stick to fifths tunings, in any instrument ; bouzouki, OM, or cittern ? I"m just not a multi-instrumentalist musician like you talented folks here…

Tune it any way you like! Gerald Trimble has used DAEAE. There’s a local fellow who plays an early Sobell cittern and tunes his in fifths - CDGAE - as he mainly goes for melody playing. I’ve met only one other cittern-player in town, but it seems he travels in different circles than I. I don’t know what brand he plays or how he tunes it, as I’ve never seen him play.

[jayjay]

There’s a great store about 4 hours drive from here, called Lark In The Morning (in Mendocino)… check out their selection of mandolas, octave mandolins, bouzoukis, and citterns!

http://larkinthemorning.com/search.asp?t=ss&sb=0"&ss=cittern&x=21&y=10

[Nanohedron]

The “Lark’s Own Brand” cittern is a good axe for the money, but the neck is not reinforced and stands the risk of warpage, which happened to me after about three years. Good sound, though. Not so bad a way to go if all you’re doing is tossing away a couple hundred bucks to see if a cittern is what you relate to and want to stick with. I wouldn’t recommend it in any other long-term capacity, though. Trinity’s okay; the sound doesn’t grab me, but it’s affordable enough. If you can swing the cash, I’d say maybe go with Fylde. Lark used to sell Foleys - maybe they still do - and naturally I recommend them most of all if it’s Lark you plan to go through. Heck, I recommend Foleys, period. But that’s just me.

[jayjay]

@Nanohedron

The “Lark’s Own Brand” cittern is a good axe for the money, but the neck is not reinforced and stands the risk of warpage, which happened to me after about three years. Good sound, though. Not so bad a way to go if all you’re doing is tossing away a couple hundred bucks to see if a cittern is what you relate to and want to stick with. I wouldn’t recommend it in any other long-term capacity, though. Trinity’s okay; the sound doesn’t grab me, but it’s affordable enough. If you can swing the cash, I’d say maybe go with Fylde. Lark used to sell Foleys - maybe they still do - and naturally I recommend them most of all. But that’s just me.

I think the next step for me is to stop being academic about this, and to go to a store like Lark, just to play around. I will probably not buy anything first time, as I’m not going to allow myself to buy anymore impulse instruments (um… I forgot to mention my mtn dulcimer I’ve got hanging on the wall > another unplayed instrument). I think at least I have myself curious about all these we’ve been discussing. I don’t like cheap sounding instruments, or instruments not built for endurance.

[Paul_Anderson]

Nano,
I was in Joe Foley’s house in late May and he had a couple of OMs that Lark had ordered from him. Nice-looking (and sounding) instruments. If I lived near there, I’d check them out.
This would also answer your previous question about whether Joe is still building. He is, and building them better than ever. And you won’t meet a nicer man.

[Nanohedron]

@Paul Anderson

Nano,
I was in Joe Foley’s house in late May and he had a couple of OMs that Lark had ordered from him. Nice-looking (and sounding) instruments. If I lived near there, I’d check them out.
This would also answer your previous question about whether Joe is still building. He is, and building them better than ever. And you won’t meet a nicer man.

Thanks! Very good to know. I’ll tell you, I like mine so much, it’s hard to imagine how he could build them any better! Gotta be good stuff.

[bcameron]

I think that, as a mandolin player, you will do well to get an octave mandolin. You will find it plenty deep enough in tone compared to your regular mando, and most important, all the fingerings will be the same as you’re used to, just a bit more stretching required.

You don’t seem to have “mandolas” on your list anymore, and that is probably wise. I have a nice one which I love to play when I’m by myself–because either everything comes out in the wrong key, or I have to learn different fingerings (one up) which are possible, but the tunes were not designed to be played thusly.

I have tried capoing the mandola with so-so results. Definitely recommend not getting one with a plan of retuning it lower. Don’t go there. Consider: what would your mandolin sound like if you tuned it down that far? Answer: not good.

Right now I am looking for an octave mando. Probably a Trinity College, I recently tried one at the Twelfth Fret in Toronto, and it was much better than I remembered. There are a bunch of similar-or identical-looking ones in the $4-600 range and opinions vary as to if there is any actual difference between them: Johnson, GoldTone and Fender as well as TC.

Good luck.
Bill

[bcameron]

I think that, as a mandolin player, you will do well to get an octave mandolin. You will find it plenty deep enough in tone compared to your regular mando, and most important, all the fingerings will be the same as you’re used to, just a bit more stretching required.

You don’t seem to have “mandolas” on your list anymore, and that is probably wise. I have a nice one which I love to play when I’m by myself–because either everything comes out in the wrong key, or I have to learn different fingerings (one up) which are possible, but the tunes were not designed to be played thusly.

I have tried capoing the mandola with so-so results. Definitely recommend not getting one with a plan of retuning it lower. Don’t go there. Consider: what would your mandolin sound like if you tuned it down that far? Answer: not good.

Right now I am looking for an octave mando. Probably a Trinity College, I recently tried one at the Twelfth Fret in Toronto, and it was much better than I remembered. There are a bunch of similar-or identical-looking ones in the $4-600 range and opinions vary as to if there is any actual difference between them: Johnson, GoldTone and Fender as well as TC.

Good luck.
Bill

[bcameron]

at the risk of repeating myself…[/quote]