Hi, I am trying to make Irish flutes using PVC pipes. Can any expert tell me how thick the wall of the pipe should be? It seems that the wall is fairly thick according to what I see in shops, much thicker than normal plastic pipes which are usually around 1-2mm. I have made a couple of them but they seem to be lack of a bit of that dark sound unique to the Irish flutes. I wonder if that has a lot to do with the thick wall. Thanks.
I’ve been using 3/4" (nominal) white PVC schedule 40 water pipe for ten years or more. It’s available at the Home Despot and Lowe’s here in the US as well as most other hardware stores. I’ve tried a lot of other pipe but that’s the best place to start, IMO, for a D flute. Add another layer of pipe at the embouchure hole as a lip plate and to increase the chimney depth if you want a darker tone. But remember it has also to do with your skill as the operator of the flute. The cut of the embouchure hole counts a lot as well. It’s a fun project in any case. You can use the thinner walled white pipe for the lip plate.
Betcha can’t make just one!
Doug Tipple has done a great service on his website by offering instructions for what to use and how to proceed. Couldn’t be easier. I’d suggest you start there.
http://tippleflutes.com/making-a-simple-irish-flute/
Be sure to thank Doug when you have a chance.
Hope that helps.
Feadoggie
Thanks a lot for that. I am a beginner of Irish flute and have nobody around to tell me if I am playing it correctly or not. So, it may have something to do with my playing. Apart from my playing, the depth of the embouchure does matter in terms of generating darker sound? What about the depth of the finger holes? The “real” Irish flutes I saw in shops seem to have much thicker wall all the way, not only the embouchure part. I reckon the depth of the wall is about 4-5mm.
Well, I’ve been making PVC flutes for about a year now (so I wouldn’t call myself an expert), I even use them in sessions, and I’ve found that to get the best sound and response from the flute is to use the normal schedule 40 PVC pipe, 3/4 inch, and then use the thinner-walled pipe for a lip-plate, as feadoggie suggested. If you’re interested in a comparison of the results of different lip-plates and embouchure cuts that I’ve had experience with, then read on!
Lip-plates:
For thick, schedule 40 PVC lip-plate - it makes the wall a bit too thick (for my purposes) thus giving a really clean, fat, sometimes strong, and rich sound. I wouldn’t say that it’s the “irish flute sound,” but it does serve some purposes. The major down-side is that it limits the 3rd octave range, unless you have a perfect embouchure, then it’s actually really nice. For lower-range (no 3rd octave) classical, it’s a decent idea.
For no lip-plate - It tends to give a weak airy tone, especially in the lower 1st octave, but it has superb range. Not much more to say about it.
For thin PVC lip-plate - It’s my personal favorite. It gives a kinda dark sound, reedy if played well. I guess I can say it has the best of both worlds (between thick, and no lip-plate). It has good range (on a good day, I can get 3 full octaves out of it), but it still has the full, rich tone of the thick lip-plate. It also looks better that the other two. If you really want to top off the sound, and make it just really good, you can try and craft a Fajardo wedge:
http://sites.google.com/site/dougsflutes/thetipple-fajardowedge
Although it helps the sound quite a bit, I’ve found that it makes it a bit less responsive and harder to play, but I can’t say that for sure because of two reasons. 1, I’ve only made one of them, and it’s got pretty bumpy, rough edges. and 2, I never glued it in place so, it always sticks up about a millimeter, thus messing with the smooth shape of the bore in a possible negative way. So, I guess I need to make another one.
Embouchure cuts:
Circular - Didn’t have much experience with this cut. I “graduated” it fairly quickly. From what I did gather, it’s not very forgiving, and it’s tone quality just isn’t that great. There’s a reason all of the major flute makers went to the oval cut.
Oval/Ellipse - Good cut. Probably the best. It can be responsive, it’s very comfortable, looks good, and has a good tone quality. The thing is, as with any cut, this can also be a very bad cut, depending on how one cuts it. If it’s rough, it won’t be good. If it’s rounded on the top edges, chances are, it won’t be that good either. If it’s smooth, but not really rounded on the edges, then it’s probably good. But that’s not all of the deciding factors. You also have the part about undercutting. I undercut my sound holes to where the blowing edge is angled out. The top is closest to me, and as it goes down, it angles away from me. I’ve found it makes it more responsive, with a much more stable, and satisfying tone. Classical metal flutes have a slight angle, the same way as mine, only on the sides of the sound hole (sides as in the | in this figure: |___|). I haven’t tried it yet though…
And that pretty much exhausts my immediate knowledge of this part of the subject. Hope it helped at least a little. Wow, that’s a long post. 
Thanks. That’s great information.
I only made two flutes so far. I am not in the US. I just picked whatever is available in the shops here which don’t have a wide selection. One pipe (D) has an internal diameter about 19mm and the other (E) has it about 22mm. The wall is about 1.3mm and 1.5mm respectively. I have the following issues:
- The bottom notes of the D flute are hard to play (it goes up to the 2nd octave).
- The two flutes are a bit too breathy (the sound).
- I can only play up to the first bottom note in the 3rd octave.
The problem is that I was an absolute beginner for flutes before I started making them. I even couldn’t make any proper note at the beginning. So, I am not sure if the above issues are related to my poor technique or my making or both probably. I can play much better now because I had to tune the flutes.
I suspect that the breathy issue has a lot to do with my embouchure as well as with my playing. Is it right to say that the smaller the embouchure, the more likely it makes the sound breathier? Both of my embouchures are kind of oval shape. I enlarged both a tiny bit after reading your post, it seems that it has some noticeable effect in terms of loudness and purity (less breathy) especially on the thicker flute (E).
“I undercut my sound holes to where the blowing edge is angled out. The top is closest to me, and as it goes down, it angles away from me. I’ve found it makes it more responsive, with a much more stable, and satisfying tone.”
Do you mean the embouchure hole here or the finger holes? I guess you mean the embouchure hole. Are you making a straight line undercut from the top of the blowing edge to the internal surface of the pipe? Or, you curve the undercut a bit from the top(outer) of the blowing edge to the (inner) bottom of it. If so, in what way is it curved? (I don’t mean a side-way curve.)
@ MeMyselfandI
I made a lip plate which does improve the sound. Thanks very much for the tip. However, I still have a couple of questions about the plate.
- Is the plate of an identical shape of the embouchure hole? I guess the answer is yes, especially the blow edge side.
- How do I undercut the plate in relation to the undercut of the pipe wall. I kind of undercut both in a way that makes a consistent undercut angle surface from the top blow edge of the plate to the inner surface of the pipe. I haven’t a chance to see a real flute in close distance to investigate how the embouchure and the lip plate are organised in detail.
Okay, if you’re just picking up whatever you can find in stores, then you might try looking for some better dimensions of pipe, even if you don’t have much selection. From what it looks like, the pipe you used wasn’t that good. Internal diameter should be (for the lower flutes, as in the most common DD irish flute pitch) at least 2 cm, yours were way too small, except for the E, that was a good enough size. As for the wall, well, the wall can be fairly thin on the body of the flute (finger hole part), as it will make it easier to play, but for the best performance, you would want the sound hole wall (the one you blow onto) to be about 5mm thick. Part of the reason your flutes were very airy and hard to play is because the sound hole wall was so thin. That’s where the lip-plate comes in. The purpose of the lip-plate is to increase the thickness of the wall around the sound hole, that’s all, so treat it like part of the pipe. Also, the thicker the sound hole wall, the stronger the lower notes will be, to an extent. So, as I said, your best bet for the thickness is about 5mm. So it looks like your main problem is just the wall thickness. But that pipe would be just perfect for whistles. Also, don’t expect to have much more than a 2 octave range on your first couple flutes, but then, the truth is that you probably already have more than a two octave range, you just don’t know it, because the fingering is different. Yes, your embouchure size does make a difference. Also, my very first flute was the one that I made. When I started, I had never even touched a flute. I started making them because I couldn’t get one at the time.
Yes, I mean the embouchure hole. To give you an idea what I’m talking about, here’s a rough sketch.
__| _
That computer sign sketch doesn’t exactly cut it, but if you connect the lines, but leave the empty space in the middle, you should get the basic idea. The \ side is the one you blow onto. Although, I wouldn’t attempt undercutting for a while, once you really start to understand how the other basic shapes and such affect the sound. After a year of making flutes, I only started trying undercutting a few weeks ago. So, for now, I would suggest just making all the walls straight down, like a normal drill would cut the hole.
Okay, and the basic answers to your questions are: 1, The plate should be the exact shape as the embouchure hole. As I said before, treat the plate as if it were part of the pipe. It’s just an extension, if you know what I mean. 2, Don’t undercut the embouchure hole until your lip-plate is on, situated, drilled, and perfectly functional. I use an exacto knife (kind of a high-precision knife, found at almost any craft store, or hardware store around here) and take most of the material off as I need, and then use a jewelers file for the fine-tuning (smoothing, and such).
That’s very helpful. Thanks.
I have suspected that my pipe walls are too thin but I have very limited amount of information available in terms of flute making. Just a lot of guessing work. My E does play better and easier than the D. I visually measured the “real” flutes in shops recently and the wall thickness at the finger holes is exactly the depth you just said, i.e. about 5mm. Then I seriously started questioning my pipe materials. At least I know now that the breathy sound of the flute is not a fault of my making.
I actually felt very disappointed with my D flute at the beginning (hard to play and weak, airy sound) and changed it to a whistle, in a makeshift way, which plays much easier. I have so far made it into a flute&whistle still in a makeshift way.
Because I have to do a lot guessing work, I have already jumped the gun in terms of undercutting the embouchure hole. I understand your chart and have undercut in that way, not sure if the angle is right though. The undercut makes the flute louder, right?
Well, the problem can be both the flute and you. My guess is that it’s a mixture of both, but it’s still probably mostly the flute in this case. 
Ah, so I’m not the only one. If I understand you correctly, I do that with most of my recent flutes. I make two heads, one a whistle head, and one a flute head, and use a PVC coupler (connector) so that I can put one of the heads on the body, and play it like that. So I make interchangeable heads, and bodies, so that I can have multiple keys and sounds for every occasion. It’s really nifty!
Um, there’s not exactly a particular angle you have to use. I mean, in the later baroque times, they were just starting to put a very slight undercut in their flutes, and it did make a difference, then as time went on, a sharper angle was starting to be used. I just make it as sharp as I can get, and it still be satisfactory, and easy to play.
Yes, but it also does many other things. It makes it more responsive, better sound quality, easier to play range, more stability in the octaves, and just an over all stability in the sound. My very first “real” irish flute that I bought (still my first and only), I got off ebay for $30. To be honest, even now that I notice just how bad it was, I am still wowed at the quality of flute that I got off that price. Yes, it had problems (but it wasn’t a Pakistani flute, luckily). It was good because its notes were/are in tune, and it had a 2 1/2 octave range, it was wood, had a conical bore, and was a flute that looked good, and played fairly easily. The problems were in the sound, and other smaller specifics of it. The bore was rough, which is not good, at all. As for the sound, it was just sounded unstable, I don’t know how to describe it better. I didn’t have much control over it, even after I started getting much better. Also, if I did a certain ornament called a cran, on the second octave D, it would try and drop down to the first octave D. A little while ago, I fixed these problems by just sanding the bore, and undercutting the embouchure hole. It is so much better now. I love the flute again. It makes it through every session, going strong. That’s just a small example of how such small specifics of the flute can have a huge effect on the sound, and everything. That’s what I like about flute making. It’s full of interesting things to learn, explore, try, inquire about, and you learn something new almost every time! but then it still has it’s disappointments…
My whistle/flute is really a makeshift version. I don’t have a PVC connector. By the way, is that just a short length of PVC pipe whose internal diameter is the same as the external diameter of the flute/whistle? Is that kind of industrial standard? Do I have to bring my flute/whistle with me if I buy one in a shop?
I just push the fipple in a bit and attach a makeshift windway on the flute, that’s the whistle. I use the embouchure hole as the window. It works.
So, undercutting definitely produces better quality of sound. Good to know that.
MemyselfandI, in my opinion now is the time to undercut at least the blowing edge of the embouchure. Why waste time trying to make an embouchure hole with just a drilled hole with straight sides. There are a number of different shapes and ways to cut an embouchure hole. A good method for beginners is to look at a successful embouchure on a good flute and try to copy it. A maker of fine Irish flutes on this forum, Jon Cornia, recommends a 7% undercut all the way around the hole with a greater undercut for the front blowing edge. Correct me Jon if I am incorrect about your suggestsion.
With a lip plate made from pvc pipe, you need to bend the lip plate with a hot air gun to conform it to the outside curvature of the headjoint. And I think that it goes without saying that you need to glue on the lip plate “before” you drill the embouchure hole.
My thought is that it is really hard to make a good playing flute if you don’t have the playing skills to tell if that flute plays well or not. Once you have a good personal embouchure and the playing skills to recognize a good playing flute, then you are ready to make the adjustments on the flute you are trying to create.
Hey, thanks for pitching in Doug! As I’ve kind of said before, I’ve only been making flutes for a little under a year, and have just recently been able to make good flutes, now that I can find better info. I’m just doing my best to try and pass on what I know.
“A maker of fine Irish flutes on this forum, Jon Cornia, recommends a 7% undercut all the way around the hole with a greater undercut for the front blowing edge.”
That’s nice to know. As you can tell, this is still a learning process for me as well. I just found out about undercutting a couple weeks ago, and am still very new to it.
“With a lip plate made from pvc pipe, you need to bend the lip plate with a hot air gun to conform it to the outside curvature of the headjoint.”
Hm, I hadn’t thought of that. Which then, I don’t have a hot air gun, so of course I wouldn’t think of that. I just use the thin PVC, and clasp it over. It tends to give a tight enough fit on the parts that are needed, but I still use a bit of glue in it to close any spaces. That is, in addition to the glue used to secure the plate
“By the way, is that just a short length of PVC pipe whose internal diameter is the same as the external diameter of the flute/whistle?”
Yeah, that’s the basic idea.
“Do I have to bring my flute/whistle with me if I buy one in a shop?”
Um, not if they have they have them labelled saying that they fit such and such size pipe, and if it’s the correct size. So, if they have a piece that is the correct size to fit your pipe, then your good. But you can always just take your flute there anyway just to make sure.
“Is that kind of industrial standard?”
Around here it is, but I don’t know what’s available around your area, so I don’t exactly know how to accurately answer that question. Oh, by the way, if Doug Tipple’s advice contradicts mine, go with his, as he’s been making flutes longer than I have, and makes much better quality flutes than mine.
@Doug, Thanks very much for the advice. In relation to Jon’s suggestion, a 7% undercut translates into a 6 degree, approximately, undercut, is that right? At the moment, I only undercut the blowing edge side and I reckon I am doing a 30 degree undercut. As I mentioned, the sound of my flute is not as pure as I would like.
Your advice on the lip plate makes sense, I have been thinking of the potential negative effect of having a slit line between the flute body around the embouchure hole and the internal surface of the lip plate. I’ll try that on my next flute. However, I have very limited access to both the materials and the tools. I am using a small section of the same pipe for the lip plate at the moment. I just “click” it onto the flute at the embouchure hole position.
Your comment on playing skill is right. I know few “flute players” and it isn’t that easy to “bother” people. So far, I can only test the flute myself. The side effect is that my playing skill has improved from zero to X amount above zero.
@MemyselfandI, Thanks. The PVC connector is a good and doable idea for me. There is this acetone method but it is not as easy as the connector one I think. I have no experience, is this kind of connectors “tight and loose” enough? I assume that you know what I mean “tight and loose”.
“is this kind of connectors “tight and loose” enough?”
Um, if I know what you mean, then I’d say yes. It’s tight enough to hold it together without leaks, and loose enough to move, but it can takes more or less effort to move depending on how far in you push the tubes. On ours, the inside diameter of the connector tapers slightly in, so the further in you push pipe, the more resistance there will be.
Actually, I really meant to say 7 degrees rather than 7% for the general undercutting all away around the embouchure hole before the additional undercut for the front blowing edge.
I make the lip plate by boring out a section of the same pipe that I use for the flute body, 3/4" schedule 40 thick wall pipe using a drill press and a special boring tool with a pilot. This is something that anyone can do with simple tools. If you make the lip plate by boring out a section of pipe, you have control over how thick the lip plate is, allowing you to match the lip plate + flute body to the embouchure chimney depth of a wooden Irish flute. As I mentioned before, I heat the lip plate pieces to match the curvature to that of the headjoint so that there is no gap between them. You can do the same thing if you are not boring out thicker pipe but using the same size of thin-wall pipe for both the flute body and the lip plate. You can also shape pvc pieces with hot water, but I don’t find it as easy to use as a hot air gun. I still have to use cotton gloves to keep from burning my fingers.
With regard to your comment about the sound of the flute being not as pure as you would like, let me say that for Irish flutes you don’t really want a pure tone. You want a “dirty” tone with some character. Classical Boehm flutes produce pure flute tones.
I strongly agree with Doug on this one. You can ask all the questions you like on how to make the flute. And we can all give you answers. But you have absolutely no idea if you are getting things right if you do not know how to play the flute, or have a friend who can help with the assessment.
Still that’s no reason not to proceed with your flute making. Just be very aware of that little truth lurking in the background. I know that it looks like a pipe with seven holes in it but there is a lot to know about making an embouchure hole and getting the tuning right. And since the player’s skill is such a key part of making the flute work right it’s likely best to buy something like one of Doug’s flutes to start out. I know it looks like it is more economical to make your own flute at the outset. Heck, it’s what I would have done forty+ years ago when I started out. But you will spend that amount and more making “prototypes” before you get things close to right, especially if you cannot play properly to assess your results in the end. It’s nice to know you have a good and playable flute when you are learning so that you can at least count that variable as not being an issue. Doug’s flutes are a good place to start. Just my thoughts.
Here are a couple things I’ll offer you. A plastic pipe connector will make a two piece flute for you. But it has drawbacks. The design of most couplers is a press fit where the fit is loose at the ends and tight at the center of the fitting. The bore of the connector is not a uniform cylinder. And there is usually a ring in the middle of the connector that acts as a stop for each piece of pipe being joined so that they are properly inserted for gluing in plumbing applications. That’s not ideal for a flute joint especially if you want it to act as a tuning slide. If you pull one side out a little bit, you loose your firm fit. And as you open the gap between the pipes you will cause an expansion in the bore that will likely change your overall tuning. So watch where you place the connector - read up on flow and pressure nodes and such. You can increase the tight area of the connector by boring or drilling out the center ring of the connector. I did that for a couple years on my early whistles and flutes. There are better solutions though. If you can find a piece of material with a uniform 1.0625 i.d. that would help. If you can find one with a slightly smaller i.d. then you could use a 1 1/6" forstner bit to drill out that pipe for a coupler. I went out and bought a lathe to make proper joints when I got to that point.
The acetone method you allude to is, I am guessing, what Guido Gonzato describes on his whistle making site. Right? I have a couple of Guido’s whistles and his tuning slides are first rate. It’s not easy to get right. But remember that he uses rather thin walled plastic. And the acetone works well with that stuff. For all the reasons described around the embouchure discussion, you will want to use the thicker walled schedule 40 pipe and then perhaps add a lip plate to that. You’ll be hard pressed to get the thicker walled plastic’s elasticity right using the the acetone method. So don’t go there!
But don’t forget the acetone. You can use it to soften a piece of 150-300 psi waste water pipe (~1.25mm wall) to fit it around the head for the lip plate. The thinner pipe has the same outside diameter as the thicker (~2.5mm wall, ~1.0625" o.d.) pipe so it does not take much to get it to fit. I am sure that is what MeMyselfandI is describing. It won’t give you as deep a chimney as Doug uses but it will help a lot. What Doug describes is certainly more ideal but you may need some tools that you might not have to do that job right. Both acetone and heat guns are nasty and so is very hot water. So work safe in a well ventilated space if not outside.
Feadoggie
“I am sure that is what MeMyselfandI is describing.”
Right on!
“What Doug describes is certainly more ideal but you may need some tools that you might not have to do that job right.”
That’s pretty much why I do it the way I do, because I don’t currently have very many “fancy” tools in my possession. I’ve just tried to get by with what I have, so that I don’t have to go out and spend big money on the bigger stuff yet. Currently, I just use a drill, a saw, an exacto knife, some jeweler files, and a dremmel (not sure about the spelling), and I get by well enough for my current liking. But once I get my hands on some better equipment, I’ll start trying to make some more high-quality stuff. Just got to get there first. 