Developing a style????

Whistle
1

I’m a tad confused…the following statement appeared in another thread…

“The only problem with learning tunes by ear is cloning the version to which one is listening rather than developing one’s own style.”

And the converse of that, as mentioned often on this list, is that the only way to learn the ‘nuances’ of Irish music is to learn by ear.

Is there room for one’s own style in Irish music…I sometimes get the impression that that is not the done thing.
Certainly it seems to be Ok with the airs, but with the fast stuff ?

It seems that the ‘big’ players have stylistic differences . So does one develop one’s own style within the paramaters of traditional Irish music? Or what?

2

On 2002-09-25 09:24, Lizzie wrote:
“The only problem with learning tunes by ear is cloning the version to which one is listening rather than developing one’s own style.”

Not a significant problem IMO. If you want to stay within the tradition, as it were, your own style is something you will develop a little later. In the early stages the dangers to style of not learning by ear are far far greater.

Think of a child learning a language: the only way to learn is by imitation. It can’t be done from a book. Later on, the child will develop his or her own way of speaking and using language.

3

Ah, very good analogy Brother Steve.

4

Lizzie,
In most styles of music, originality very often comes of making a virtue out of a failed attempt to copy something one admires greatly but can’t quite copy. At some point you notice how your playing differs from what you were trying to do, realise that it doesn’t sound so bad, and then work on creatively playing it up. As for Irish-style whistling, if I could first get to be a Mary Bergin clone, I think I could work on the originality later. For the time being, I’ll keep working on getting to the point where my failure ‘doesn’t sound too bad.’

5

I don’t know about irish music in specific, but I’m in the beginning stages of being an art major, and so far my instructors have just told me that “You have to learn the rules before you can break them!” and I guess that applies to Irish music as well…

6

Think of a child learning a language: the only way to learn is by imitation. It can’t be done from a book. Later on, the child will develop his or her own way of speaking and using language.
[/quote]
Can a child who learned english in america only by imitation ever speak british english?
I think you can just imitate and develop right if you know what you are doing and why.
If a someone learned english in america by imitating and meanwhile read books by British authors (Wilde f.e.) his vocabulary would be much richer and universal.

7

Well, it might be kinda off-topic, but I’ve read that as a child, what you learn becomes your deepest, basic knowledge, and it’s very hard to undo what you’ve learned. I know an english guitar player who speaks somewhat good french, but didnt want to teach his son french because he said his son was going to have some bad habits that would be very hard to get rid of, he preferred to have his son learn french from a native french speaking person.

8

On 2002-09-25 10:57, Azalin wrote:
I know an english guitar player who speaks somewhat good french, but didnt want to teach his son french because he said his son was going to have some bad habits that would be very hard to get rid of, he preferred to have his son learn french from a native french speaking person.

He wanted his son to learn a completely different set of bad habits, eh?

9

On 2002-09-25 10:02, sweetone wrote:


Think of a child learning a language: the only way to learn is by imitation. It can’t be done from a book. Later on, the child will develop his or her own way of speaking and using language.

Can a child who learned english in america only by imitation ever speak british english?
I think you can just imitate and develop right if you know what you are doing and why.
If a someone learned english in america by imitating and meanwhile read books by British authors (Wilde f.e.) his vocabulary would be much richer and universal.

Listen to any yank talk after spending a dozen years in britain and while he may not be right on, he probably has picked up on much of the accent and general tone of speech. It’s a natural product of aculturation, the more one identifies with a culture, the more one absorbs it. Often, without consciously realizing how much has been absorbed. For most folks I think its about exposure: recorded, in-person, or through relationships. Exposure is the key, weather the exposure is academic, studied, social, familiar, vocational, or vacational.

BTW Your example of a british author, might raise a few heckles, Oscar Fingal O’Flahertie Wills Wilde, was not a common Brit (nor a common Irishman for that matter, but he was born in Dublin and went to Trinity college).

I think with Irish Traditional music, style is less of an issue, its more about connecting with the folks you’re playing with. The reason to learn a number of settings for any tune, is to gain the vocabulary to fit in easily, with the folk you’re playing with, and the feelings reflective of the occasion for which you’re playing. It not about saying it right, its about agreeing with how the others are saying it.

Some folks study hard to establish the skills to do this artfully with the folks they’re play for, but alot folks just do it because they care for the folks they’re playing with. It’s the difference between playing ‘for’ and playing ‘with’. I like to think of it as the difference between a performance and a session. Yes, I’ve been to sessions that are really about a few of the folks performing for the rest of us. Those sessions would be alot more fun for everyone, if those performers, used that expertise to draw all of the folks into playing. Of course, maybe no one is as selfless as to always play ‘with’ others, nor is anyone so egocentric as to only play ‘for’ others, most fall between the extremes.

Some collect the music in their minds eye, a vision they can share with others.
Some find it has seeped into their hearts and simply are trying to find a way to release it.
It matters not which you are, but only that you …

Enjoy Your Music,

Lee Marsh

[ This Message was edited by: LeeMarsh on 2002-09-25 11:32 ]

10

On 2002-09-25 11:19, LeeMarsh wrote:

the more one identifies with a culture, the more one absorbs it. Often, without consciously realizing how much has been absorbed. For most folks I think its about exposure: recorded, in-person, or through relationships. Exposure is the key, weather the exposure is academic, studied, social, familiar, vocational, or vacational.

Agreed. Exposure is the key. More than identification I think. The other key is aptitude I think. A natural mimic, exposed to a dialect will pick it up whether he or she identifies or not. It doesn’t help to identify if you don’t immerse yourself in the style. But even if you do either or both, it comes more easily to some than others. That’s life … But exposure is the crucial aspect that you have some control over and that’s what enables you to make the best of what you’ve got.

[ This Message was edited by: Wombat on 2002-09-25 11:45 ]

11

Very well said Lee. As for the Oscar Wilde, I referred to him because his literature is written in a genuine British way.
cheers

12

On 2002-09-25 11:19, LeeMarsh wrote:


I think with Irish Traditional music, style is less of an issue, its more about connecting with the folks you’re playing with. The reason to learn a number of settings for any tune, is to gain the vocabulary to fit in easily, with the folk you’re playing with, and the feelings reflective of the occasion for which you’re playing. It not about saying it right, its about agreeing with how the others are saying it.

I don’t agree with that at all, style is of foremost importance. The session may be a big pressure towards conformity, the music is not about session, the music is about individual expression, say what you have to say and say it in an eloquent, personal way. All the great players have great personal voices and approaches to the musci, those who only sit in at session only plod along with the masses, without colour, without expression.


[which doesn’t mean I don’t agree with Lee about the pleasure of interaction with other players, it is a skill in itself but the essential side of the music is not that of ensemble playing].

13

So many people lauded Bruce Lee’s system of martial arts because it did not contain any pre-arranged forms; they forgot however that he studied pre-arranged forms for many years early on. I heartily agree with learn the rules before breaking them. In any event, your own style will always creep in somehow while you’re learning from others.

Philo

14

Okay, “cloning” is not the right word. (Too much Jameson’s before posting that.) Actually, cloning the styles of the great players would be a good thing. I was thinking about what often happens when one attempts to clone a highly ornamented setting. The basic tune can be completely lost. Most of us have heard what can happen. For example, the inappropriate irregularity in the rhythm due to a pause while the perspiring whistler mentally prepares himself/herself for a difficult roll. The ornaments can be perfectly executed, but if done improperly, they detract rather than enhance the tune. It’s probably best to learn how to walk before attempting to run.

15

About your own individual way of playing…
I learned flute in the 1950s and '60s.
Then I put it away for ABOUT 40 YEARS.
When I wanted to learn to play the whistle
all that flute knowledge came right back to the surface and I COULDN’T change my style
as much as I listen to Irish Traditional and
went to sessions and played along.
I guess after 10 years of Flute I HAD my style, so now all I can do is play “pretty”,
and I sure sound “American”, ha ha ha
Lolly

16

Cloning is a problem that does happen, though, when someone learns by ear from only one player and slavishly endeavours to reproduce their recordings down to the last detail. Now and again you come across people who have succeeded amazingly well.

My reaction to these clones is always, what is the point? You had the skill and application to copy your hero almost exactly - it’s a pity you didn’t apply it to finding your own voice.

As for the child learning to speak analogy, it was only an analogy, and a hasty one at that, not meant to be extrapolated to extremes.

17

Steve - I don’t know if you’re old enough to remember this, but back in the glorious sixties, there was a group that only imitated the Beatles and very well; but I agree, what’s the point?

Philo

18

This topic brings to mind, a living (now dead) mythological folk hero, Robert Johnson.

When Robert first picked up the guitar, eye witness reports that he was standard. It is said that he listend and watched the older players. Robert left his home for a couple of years and when he came back he was playing like no one else. The story has been exagerated to include Robert selling his soul during the subaticle. You know the story.

I feel the story rings true to style. When someone says you must know the rules before you can break them, what is being said beyond the obvious rules of theory is inclusive of the masters examples. At some point however, you are going to have to put all your books and CD’s away and discover what you yourself have to say. Only by doing this are you ever going to find an original voice inside.