Hi all,
I have been busy on the lathe and mill and got my self a nice 5/8 delrin tube with a 1/2 inch bore along with some brass ferrules. I was wondering if anyone had a good way of determining where to put the top hole to get C natural oxxooo intune, I read that a ~43% venting on this hole will get me close (Sound Solumns and Toneholes) Does anyone have experience or advice. I doubt I will get it right on the first try but thought I would see if I could get any advice.
-tony
You’d need to design for the C# to be quite flat relative to equal temperament, a bit flat relative to just intoned.
See https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/thumb-hole-or-not-and-intonation/72346/5
The just C# is ca 12 cent flat of ET. Go a bit flatter still.
I use -20cents on my tone hole calculator, which seems to work out quite well, but different makers use different approaches and figures .
As someone who has played whistle for many years (nearly 40 years) I will second what Hans says.
I want oxx ooo to be in tune at the same blowing pressure as the neighbouring notes xoo ooo and oxx xxx.
I expect ooo ooo to be a bit flat and I “blow it out” by long habit.
BTW it seems to be tricky for whistlemakers to get that area of the whistle’s scale just right, the portion
xxo ooo
xoo ooo
oxx ooo
oxx xxx
xxx xxo
Good whistles can play through that range, going from A in the 1st octave through E in the 2nd octave and stay right in tune on more or less even pressure.
It may be helpful to get some experience with undercutting the toneholes. In many cases, undercutting the first hole below is very useful. That means the hole gets bigger as it goes in, and it’s all angled toward the foot.
I’ve certainly had plenty of experience with this problem. Whether I’ve got it right by now is a matter of mass opinion, I suppose. As Hans points out, this fingering with this hole configuration will affect the C#. I’ve also found this: on [popular make] fifes, the octave relationship of the Ds is allscrewedup, with D1 being 30 cents flat, D2 okay, D3 being 15 cents sharp, and A3 (a harmonic of D) being 15 cents sharp. C-nat-2 is very likely to squeak, and these issues all relate to the size, shape, and position of that first hole. It becomes a matter of priorities, what’s important to you. In my case, I wanted the Ds to be in tune, then the C#s, and by the time I got to C-nats, I ended up with an alternate fingering, but all the notes were stable and in tune. Some people refer to the top hole as the C# hole, but it’s also the primary C-nat hole and the D-vent hole; if we want the hole to serve well in two octaves, now we realize that this hole affects the pitch and response of six notes. It’s not easy, and I’m not sure that computer software will address all the issues at once.
I would second Hans that the C# has to be pitched flat of ET if the Cnat is to have a prayer of being close. I differ in that I just aim for a just C# at -12 cents compared to ET and not lower.
I chased an in tune Cnat for awhile and then gave up - partly because a solution that worked messed up other important things and I learned to half hole. Ironically while working on the rest of the tuning issues - largely getting the octaves in tune - I have ended up with with a perfectly usable Cnat fingering.
It’s not easy, and I’m not sure that computer software will address all the issues at once.
I used computer software to figure an in tune A, B, Cnat, C# but it did not work (I did this several years ago, as I remember it without looking up notes the main problem was that B2 did not want to speak). I would say that computer software will NOT address all the issues because there is not one simple solution. Any solution will be a compromise and/or require other tweaks to the design.
So my hints to getting a usable Cnat :
learn to half hole (my current whistles require it for second octave);
get some cheaper CPVC water pipe to experiment with first rather than more expensive delrin tube
make a removable head design so you can make one head and lots of bodies
C# should be flat of ET ( -12cents works for me);
make the T1 hole as small as works for things other than C#/nat considerations
let us know what you end up with
tricky for whistlemakers to get that area of the whistle’s scale just right, the portion
xxo ooo
xoo ooo
oxx ooo
oxx xxx
xxx xxo
which only leaves
xxx xoo
xxx ooo
and the octave relationships !!
A smaller T1 hole also helps with the D1 and D2 octave tuning mentioned by Walt, but does not fix it - on the other hand opening and closing the top hole can be used for finger vibrato on D2 so maybe it should not be partly fixed. Choices and more choices.
Thanks guys,
I am not using the computer, but rather making my own excell sheet (I like doing the math). I will aim for 12 cents flat then and see how it goes, I am making a separate head with a tuning slide, it allowed me to not worry about many of the lenghts while making the tube should also help if I blow it on this body. I think I will make all the holes a little undersized and then ream them up one at a time as I go. That is what I used to do on my cheapo African water pipe village specialls. The my engineering sense is telling me that there is way to much going on for me to trust my calcs at face value. (equations are from Air Columns and Tone Holes). Thanks for the input, I’m hopefully going to drill them out by the end of next weekend.
Thank You,
-Tony