All,
While I agree with Mr. Byrne that it would be nice to have some reference to turn to regarding a rating for pipemakers, I think that it is highly doubtful this will come about when people on these lists will not publicly state their opinions on makers for fear of being “impolite.” While I understand that everyone wants to avoid flame wars and “my pipes are better than your pipes” arguments, surely with 50 or more makers in the world, it’s not sticking one’s neck out too far to list a “Top 10.” I’ve found that after reading this and the listserv uillean boards for over a year, I still couldn’t tell you who the top 10 makers are. I think I can come up with the top 3, Wooff, Williams and Froment. But that’s not much to show for a year and a half of searching for this knowledge. I think that it would be nice to see a thread stating people’s opinions on their favorite pipes in “Top 10 list” format. Everyone just needs to remember to be cool and keep in mind that it’s just individuals opinions. Actually, I think from a beginners standpoint, that it would be much more interesting to see discussion of the “mid-range” makers; both price- and wait-wise. The makers I listed above are basically non-viable for a beginner. Their wait times and prices make them a bad choice for someone starting out. The average player needs to know about makers whose pipes he can get ahold of this century. Anyway, I’d like to ask Mr. Byrne, since he has heard many different maker’s pipes at Henrietta street, who HIS top 10 list includes.
peace
jd
and I thinkyou could add Lynch, Gallagher, and Quinn to your list to bring it up to 6 (and probaby the top 3 US makers).
Jeff
Yeah, I forgot about Koehler/Quinn, definately up there. I don’t know about Gallagher or Lynch. While they are well known in the US, I don’t know if thats the case in the rest of the world. On the other hand, you could probably say that they are in the top 10.
I had a thought that one could also go about this by looking at waiting list times. That would probably give a good idea as to which makers are perceived to be the best by the pipe-buying public. Can anyone quote some waiting list times (for any maker that you are aware of). I think a couple like Quinn and Wooff have waiting times of “never.” I.e. their books are closed. Just a thought.
jd
Mark Byrne has a good point saying that most pipes young kids learning are faced with are atrocious. And anyone teaching the pipes will know the problem of students with virtually unplayable instruments [as well as the working but awful sounding ones]. I don’t actually see ‘the market’ levelling that out, on the contrary most of the atrocious makers seemed to have sprung up after the current post riverdance hype in piping. And indeed at any tionol or summerschool people can be seen staring in admiration at the most horrible contraptions, thinking that this is the way pipes should be. For the record, the pipes shouldn’t be a hassle, if theyare set up well they are easy to play and will generally work easily, even if sensitive for humidity and temperature changes [that may throw them off occasionally].
I don’t see how NPU can have a function ‘accrediting’ pipes, who will set the criteria and it is also a very small world. I remember one very well-known piper saying in the context of a particular maker’s work, that he doesn’t like it at all but would never be seen in public saying that because he is dependant on your man to make reeds for him. And then you see notices here that so and so plays a chanter by such and such so it must be a good chanter. Yeah, well, maybe.
Taste and personal requirements are another thing. I get questions asked from members of this forum, to recommend a pipemaker, these days I usually reply that I cannot recommend anyone [despite my own strong opinions on the matter], what would suit me may not suit you and what would be great for you may not be great for me at all. Find something to suit your own style.
Personally, I wouldn’t be able to list even a handful of pipe makers I would want a set of pipes by, mostly they are of the ‘I could eventually get used to this’ variety. Although the situation has improved since twenty years ago and very nice and playable pipes are being made, most pipers and especially learners still have to make do with what they can get and potentially promising pipers are put off because the quality and price of instruments.
There has been talk concerning a school of excellence for pipemaking for some time, unfortunately nothing much has yet been done towards it, despite promises by prominent pipemakers to put in the effort and pass on the skills once the course is established.
As to the complaint that only Irish people would benefit a pipes on loan scheme. Na Piobairi Uilleann has an aim to promote and strenghten the piping tradition. This, like it or not, will mean nourishing the talents of young Irish kids who have the music and are part of the culture and as it is there are by far more looking for practice sets than NPU can provide so you can hardly blame the organisation for trying to do what it was founded for.
Barring the foul language Mike Byrne has stated a good case but I do not believe NPU or any other organization should reign over the pipemakers. This forum is I think the best source to research on pipemakers..its word of mouth even if it is polite. When I came here a year and half ago I ended up ordering a Preshaw practice set and then a half set. RELATIVELY SHORT WAITNG LIST at the time. I believe he has served me well and I credit this forum for guiding me. I researched other Pipemakers and went to the private email system to get the negatives. I have also witnesses others struggle with pipes from a maker who had a long waing list…the maker no doubt would be on the NPU top list. The chanter bore holes didnt even line up and the reed was made for hercules. The beginner couldnt make the pipes fly.
I also know that the narrow bore crew doesnt care fo concert pitch etc and sometimes vise versa. There could be discrimination on that score alone. I also think there would be politics involved in getting on this list.
I think the choosing of the pipemaker is the prelude of just how difficult the instrument itself is. No matter what you do the pipes become easier as you study the information and take the time to learn.
P.S. Peter…your probably one of the most experienced pipers on this forum and I think that you should give us the benefit of such by recommending makers…??? Or if you see somebody going down the road to catastrophe send the private email ???
Barring the foul language Mike Byrne has stated a good case but I do not believe NPU or any other organization should reign over the pipemakers. This forum is I think the best source to research on pipemakers..its word of mouth even if it is polite. When I came here a year and half ago I ended up ordering a Preshaw practice set and then a half set. RELATIVELY SHORT WAITNG LIST at the time. I believe he has served me well and I credit this forum for guiding me. I researched other Pipemakers and went to the private email system to get the negatives. I have also witnesses others struggle with pipes from a maker who had a long waing list…the maker no doubt would be on the NPU top list. The chanter bore holes didnt even line up and the reed was made for hercules. The beginner couldnt make the pipes fly.
I also know that the narrow bore crew doesnt care fo concert pitch etc and sometimes vise versa. There could be discrimination on that score alone. I also think there would be politics involved in getting on this list.
I think the choosing of the pipemaker is the prelude of just how difficult the instrument itself is. No matter what you do the pipes become easier as you study the information and take the time to learn.
P.S. Peter…your probably one of the most experienced pipers on this forum and I think that you should give us the benefit of such by recommending makers…??? Or if you see somebody going down the road to catastrophe send the private email ???
Peter,
I never meant to insinuate that NPU wasn’t doing what they were set up to do and I have absolutely no problem with their loaner sets for “Irish kids”. What I do have a problem with is, that if makers were required to donate a set to NPU to become “accredited” and then a loaner (as suggested earlier), then ONLY the irish kids would benefit. Hardly fair for say an American or Canadian maker to donate their wares to an organization who then loans them out to people a lot less likely to buy one of their sets in the future. Most American or Canadian sets are probably bought in the country of origin and stay there. Everyone always says to buy local. Of course I could be wrong - as my wife is apt to point out… frequently.
What would probably be most helpful to beginners looking for a set is a good and honest FAQ - something that would show up early in a Google search with advice on what to look for, where to look, who to talk to, how to buy off ebay, what to avoid etc. …
People are always worried about giving out negative information about a maker for fear of repecussions - legal or otherwise - (or maybe it’s just politeness, I don’t know), yet magazines and movie reviewers, and food critics do it all the time - how do they get away with it?
Jeff
Excellent points here. Actually, a tentative top list would be a very good idea, I think, because it just might spur on the rest to up their own ante, to strive harder for the excellence required. Better still, just a list, with the best at the top, the very good, the good… and the ones to watch, which would include very talented newer makers, apprentices and so forth.
This might be a good idea, as I said, to inspire the rest to work harder, and so on, to get a better rating, to advance “upwards”. Might this not help the situation? Quinn said that there is plenty of room at the top.
I don’t know, see above, I had a pupil of mine get a Kennedy chanter. Brian MacNamara bought a Quinn, Harry Bradley also a Kennedy, some people go to Germany or Australia for their instrument. Piping has arrived at the marketplace of the global village and I think makers outside Ireland can only benefit from penetrating a market that will guarantee the most continuity.
The C&F flute forum is not shy to rate their flutes and flute makers. They’re doing it right now, again.
The trouble with rating ullileann pipes on this forum is that you have several categories of pipers, many of whom may only think they know the answers. Clearly, you can’t take the word of so-and-so who’s only been playing for a few short years, perhaps has played only a few different sets, ruins reeds, doesn’t understand reeds/climate completely, doesn’t know how certain ornaments are tied in with a certain bore, and hasn’t played any better sets. Some good pipers also have an axe to grind with certain pipemakers…yes, I’m saying you can’t always trust an opinion. Others have political preferences threaded in with an opinion.
First, you must establish guidelines on how to value someone’s opinion. For me, I’d only place value on an opinion if I was convinced that “The Opining Piper” 
was one of the best pipers anround and had tried most of the different makers full sets for more than just a short time. Some of the best pipers never use this forum, so that also complicates the results.
One of the safest ways to determine who the good pipemakers are is to trust the word of the best reed makers. They’ve probably reeded and played them all (so to speak), are good pipers themselves, and could offer a list of the best pipes they’ve ever worked on.
I recently talked to one of the most famous of all reed makers, respected by all, and he only had discouraging things to say about one of the more popular pipe makers regulator keys. What are you going to do with that opinion? Yet another all Ireland pipe champion plays these very pipes and endorses them! Gets a little confusing if you only take peoples word for it. Remember, the experts seldom agree. That’s why it’s hard to start dropping names.
Apologies to all for using swear words in my previous post, I’m slightly embarressed by it and realise how infantile it was to use such language on a large forum like this one.
I’m not trying to make excuses but in my defence its a subject matter I have very strong feelings on and one that raises deep emotions in me and I was caught up in the passion of writing it by using swear adjectives to heighten and underline my feelings on the matter as opposed to being just plain rude.
apologies again,
Mark.
Peter, you may be right. The internet certainly has opened up the global market, we’ll see what the next few years bring.
Jeff
Lorenzo,
I certainly can’t quibble with anything that you’ve said. But the upshot to me is that I would rather have people’s totally subjective opinions than no information at all. And besides that, I think if you got enough people talking, you would see some definite patterns emerge.
James
Now Larry, you and I both know that it would be absolutely wrong to disparage a makers work based soley on the perceived quality of regulator keys. There is so much else that goes into the pipemaking that to dismiss one maker’s pipes because of the reg keys is to do a great disservice to the piping community - especially if the rest of his work is top-notch.
Jeff
If a chanter is extremely hard to reed is it a bad chanter?
even if it sounds magical with the right reed?
That’s a startlingly good point.
I’m a GHB player to trade, and this is an issue for us.
The chanter most commonly played by our top soloists (Naill) is a bastard to reed. It really is. But the company makes its money selling hundreds of chanters a year to beginners who buy them ‘because [insert name here] plays one’. They all sound like beginners playing Naills and they have a bad time because of it. If they went out and bought a crappy (IMNSHO) Shepherd chanter, they’d have a much easier life.
But get a Naill going well and there’s no other sound like it.
Food for thought,
Calum
James, maybe the best thing to do is figure out who on this board is best to ask for an opinion. I could go for that. Then the two (or more) of you could communicate privately without publicly appearing to impugn the reputation of any maker. We have to admire all who attempt making uilleann pipes. Most just keep getting better and better, but some are just better than others, and some much much better. A list has been posted before, someone would have to dig it up, but we can safely say that Pakistani pipes have a pretty unanimous vote “no way.” You’re talking to a crowd that has been through some tough times on this board regarding restraint and saying too much indiscriminately. These are sensitive issues needless to say. Also, other makers not on that list have been recently endorsed by experienced qualified pipers.
DQuinn has recently endorsed Patrick Murray’s practice sets for being good, inexpensive, and with a short waiting time. Quinn also recently praised Michael Hubbert’s pipes (more expensive full sets). Kirk Lynch has also had the endorsement of several whose opinion I trust very much. Some others on this board have also offered positve opinions on specific makers, and AlanB once offered a negative on one maker (I forget who) saying he’d never had success reeding one of his chanters. We do come out with it occasionally, but very carefully.
Jeff, I asked the reed maker a specific question about smooth tapered edges on keys vs. a certain makers decorative keys (neither use this forum) and was told that if I didn’t want sore wrists…go with the smooth edges. He said his wrists got very sore playing them, and felt like the edges were cutting his skin. He also thought the drones were weak. I appreciated his opinion very much. Anyone wanting more specifics, feel free to email me.
Lorenzo,
Ever thought these makers may be scratching one an others backs?
as I’ve said before if the maker is not prepared to put in writing what
your getting for your money I would not give him an order for any
pipes, there are others makers who will to much money to lose, I’m
not meaning to cause any trouble here but its time people did. 