Has the Bubble burst for Pipemakers?

Uilleann Pipes
1

G’Day All,

I don’t know about you lot, but lately I have noticed that people are not prepared or seem not to be prepared to pay, what I think are artificially high prices for pipes.

On Ebay of late I haven’t noticed the large amounts of money being paid out for Uilleann pipes. Granted different matter when it comes to Williams, Wooff, Froment and Quinn. But others seem to be having a hard time raising the money.

I have been for some time astounded at the prices of Uilleann pipes and believe we pipers are getting a bit of a raw deal, as I watch prices rise at a rate higher and faster than the housing market. Now I see signs that the supply and demand has now slowed considerably. I state this due to the fact that many of the second tier pipemakers such as the Gallagher’s Britton’s and many others. Please don’t think for a minute that I’m claiming that Gallagher and Britton are grade 2 pipe makers, far from it. I have heard several of the pipes and I thought them nice.

I believe us the pipers have been to blame here in a lot of respects, because we paid the money, so we are as much to blame for this as the pipe makers.

Another very important point I believe should also be discussed here also. Why in the hell do a lot of these pipemaker take orders from pipers and then are unable to give any idea of a price. I have heard this many times over the past couple of years. To me this is very wrong!! And it says to me that I will charge you as much money I think I can get from you when the time comes. Pipemakers should not be allowed to get away with this also, if they cannot give an honest answer to a straightforward and important question, then they should take the order at all. It is not fair to the purchaser who may have to save for many years to be in a position to pay for the instrument.

Just something that I have been feeling for a while and I’m very sure many others out there are feeling very much the same as I do.

Seamus
:sniffle:

2

What pipemaker doesn’t have their price list ready? Maybe if they’ve been at it for a month they wouldn’t know; or is this a more common problem than that?
At least in the states the gross income for being a self employed instrument builder is pretty pitiful, after taxes. Given the cost of living adjustments it’s no surprise these things cost so much. What would you shell out for 7 keyed flutes? Not an exact analogy, maybe; but stock, bag, bellows, case, switches. Lots of work; I’m sure one of the pipemakers here could break it down for you.

3

I think you are right that prices for pipes are beyond the ridiculous in a lot of cases.

I have seen the price increase at work and have had lengthy discussions with a pipemaker who was particularly hit by it. It is not in all respects a straight forward story.

I won’t go into all what you are saying, I can say that re the reluctance of some pipemakers to quote a price, this may be due to long waitign periods, it gets very tricky in the present situation to predict a price as it will be in five to ten years time. As an illustration I refer to above pipemaker who had quoted prices years ahead and was selling pipes at 3-4 K. At this point lunatics started buying his pipes, older sets at auctions for 12-13K and pipers knocked on the door with wads of money to jump the waiting list. You have to respond to that. You can’t stick to your old prices and ofcourse the lesser makers will follow suit because there are so many in the market willing to pay high prices. It’s the pipers in post Riverdance boomtown who drive up the prices, pipemakers take what’s on offer, they have t omove with the market. Ofcourse this always attract a bunch of guys who put a few sticks in the lathe and try to get the same money, if you think they are substandard, well you just let them at it, if they don’t sell they’ll come down.

4

This is a tough argument and I can see it going both ways. On the one hand, the cost of materials that actually goes into a pipe or even just a reed for that matter is FAR FAR below what is actually charged to us the consumer. Is that fair? Who’s to say? We sure seem willing (as a whole) to keep dishing out for them though.

On the other hand you can look at it from the craftsman standpoint. You are also charging for skill - and how anyone can put a quantative value on that I don’t know. Who is to say who is better for “x” reasons and therefore should be charging more money?

I know as a musician, when our band tours, we charge several thousand dollars a gig. I almost fell over when I first heard about LOCAL bands such as ours doing this. But when you think about all the stuff that goes into a single 1 1/2-2 hour performance, like hours and hours of driving, rental vehicles to get the gear there, set up and tear down time, lodging, food, gas, not to mention uncounted hours of practice time, computer resources to make and keep contacts, promotional expenses, etc. etc. it all adds up. Oh yeah, almost forgot to mention that as a five piece band, it all gets split five ways too. So we’re left with a pretty small piece of the cookie.

Pipe makers must spend a great deal of time sourcing product, learning skills and in several cases paying assistants to help them turn out work. I can understand why some charge more than others too when you look at the matertials used and the quality of product when it’s all said and done.

Anyway, I dunno if there is a right or wrong answer to your question. I certainly wish there was a way that pipemakers could afford to make pipes full time (while not ending up in debtors prison!), and that I could think that a 3 month wait for any pipe related component was considered long, and that I could grab an awesome full set or two for under $1,500. Untill that blessed day arrives though, I think we’re stuck right where we are.

…Could be worse!!

5

Every point raised so far is valid, but I would like to toss another pebble into the pond (tosser that I am :smiley: ): there is little or no way for UP buyers to know what is available in the market, whose sets are best, what is a reasonable price to pay, etc. other than word-of-mouth. If you’re pipemaker A, and you learn that your competition, pipemaker B, is selling a D half-set for $3000 when you are only charging $2000, then you risk looking like your stuff isn’t as good as pipemaker B’s.

We can sit here and ooh and aah at Geoff Wooff’s prices and his waiting list, or Kohler & Quinn’s, but there is no way for a new buyer to judge if their stuff is worth it, versus buying from a pipemaker with lower prices and a shorter waiting list. Just because another pipemaker doesn’t charge as much, or only has a two-year waiting list, doesn’t necessarily mean that his work isn’t just as good, or at least comparable, but since there is no easy way for buyers to compare, except through their impressions of what other pipers say, or by observing eBay prices, you end up with a situation where the pipemaker is tempted to charge as much as he dares, and the buyer is forced to be impressed by the higher price.

And what will we do if the Pakistani sets ever get better? :wink:

djm

6

I’m in the semiconductor industry, where the cost of materials is essentially zero, but you need a multi-billion dollar fab to put them together. Cost of materials for a set of pipes is equally irrelevant IMHO, and I think that the majority of pipe makers don’t charge enough for their work to cover their labor, but its all the market will bear.

Even if the best set of pipes on the planet sold for $25,000, and a top line full set for $8000 or so, that’s still an incredibly low cost to nearly any other niche hobby, whether it be off-road dune buggies, high-end audio (I know people who paid that much for speaker wire), or owning a general aviation aircraft. In general a top-end set of pipes might as well be money in the bank, they hold their value, while airplanes and cars suck up cash as fast as gasoline. Insurance on the pipes is a lot less too…

I sure couldn’t build a set of pipes that meet my requirement for what I pay someone else to build them for me…

All that being said, I do think there is a need for some kind of consistent, well playing student practice set that can be bought for under $500.00. The recent cast plastic chanters are very encouraging and I hope is a continuing trend to bring more players into the fold.

M

7

Kevin L. Rietmann

What pipemaker doesn’t have their price list ready? Maybe if they’ve been at it for a month they wouldn’t know; or is this a more common problem than that?

Yes in the US most pipemakers are displaying their prices and giving their price up front, But there is one I have heard of not giving a price. I’m not going to name anyone to single someone out, as there are several using this tactic.

Kevin Don’t be getting upset now! What I’m stating is some pipemakers are treating purchasers with some disrespect. Maybe you Kevin and many others are in the position to pay very large sommes of money for your hobby. I once met a young lady from the North of Ireland who won the 15 piping in the all-Ireland and she told me she has a Robbie Hughes chanter and a homemade bag and bellows. The point is this is a very talented young lady, who told me her mother could pay the large sommes of money to upgrade her to drones or anything else. She told me she is just going to stick to the flute from now on, due to costs a talent has been lost to large overheads in piping. How many others particularly young people. One ting lately I have seen is a couple of pipemakers addressing this problem Rogge, Murray and O’Briain. Fair play to them, as they are making cheap practice sets and I heard a Rogge plastic and it sounded every bit as well as any of his wooden chanters.

As to naming pipemakers who are not giving prices out, I’m amazed you don’t know the answer to that Kevin, as you would be in a better poison than I to hear about that. I will give K&Q their dues, what they do is open and close their books every 3-4 years and not making silly promises of pipes 10 years from now and I don’t know what I will be charging and I’ll tell you a year before hand. Another point, these pipemakers with these amazingly long wait times should be employing people to help with the order backlogs (supply and demand). This not only makes good business sense for the pipemaker it also passes good quality skills on to others and enhancing the quality of pipes for years to come, with skills being past onto others. I always hear people such as yourself talk about the lost skills and knowledge in pipemaking from the old masters, such as Coyne Harrington and Kenna etc. This is still a matter-a-fact even today.

But my main point has been the speed of the rise in pipes. This started much as Peter has said and I feel the bubble has began to burst and maybe just maybe the prices will be a bit more realistic. Some prices I have heard is more than what some people are earning in a year so come on now Kevin. In the UK, where I am at present some people are on under £8000 per year and I know not many in the States would be on this kind of wage but this is a fact in many parts of Europe and elsewhere.

I have heard of $10000 US from several pipemakers in the US and a couple of simular prices in Ireland and England. Seriously now, is any instrument worth that sort of money? Also as Peter also said, 12-15K Euro this is totally crazy.

As I also said we are as much to blame for this situation as we the pipers pay the prices and as Peter also said it is up to us as purchaser to refuse to pay ridiculous prices.


Seamus
:sniffle:

8

Well, some of us don’t make nearly that much. Some of us are still looking for a job thanks to G.W.'s awesome economy he’s built for all of us. :roll: Ah well, I still have my awesome cheap Daye set that plays like a dream! COUGHbullshit

9

Another point, these pipemakers with these amazingly long wait times should be employing people to help with the order backlogs (supply and demand).

No…then a Koehler and Quinn set would be a set by an amalgam of makers…same for a Woof set…etc. I would not appreciate that much at all. I’d rather these gentlemen take the time to ensure that the very best product is on the market. Keep in mind that these revered makers aren’t constructing an instrument just for those of us who are greedy and impatient…they are crafting a piece the will be around much longer than the original owner. In essence, they are crafting for all of mankind. I’m sure that K&Q and GW and others in the same vein of pipemaking want their instruments to stand the test of time and they can only assure that this will be the case if they control nearly every step in the construction of the instrument.

I had purchased a set in C# this past year. It was an ok set but not what I had expected based on the quality and workmanship of the chanter I have made by this particular maker. I ultimately traded sets with another fella and he immediately recognized the C# set as a signature set by the makers helper. Now, I know the maker had his temporary disability and the only way I was to get the set was for it to be constructed by an apprentice. But, I recognized the lack of expected or anticipated quality and I think it was due to this notion of a helper in the shop …who did a good job mind you…but it was not a classic set of pipes by the maker I paid.

I see what you folks are saying about pipes, makers, availability, costs and, as a result, I see that socialism and entitlement are alive and prospering.

10

This has been discussed several times before.
In order to maintain quality standards, does the pipemaker have to perform 100% of EVERY operation for the set?
I think not.
An apprentice can rough turn chanters prior to their final seasoning, follow patterns to make bellows clappers and leather gussets (prior to their hand stitching) Turn smaller wooden components like bag fittings/stocks drone parts giving the master more time to work on the more intricate pieces.

11

If we buy a sculpture by Rodin, a painting by Rembrandt or a violin by Stradivari, do we buy a classic masterpiece or ‘from the workshop of’. Well, both I suppose, we don’t know how the old pipemakers worked but like the three examples above and given the systems of apprenticeship of the day there may well have been a considerable amount of ‘help’ available.
And, like in Glands’ case, it wasn’t like it wasn’t widely know how that particular workshop operated [articles in the Piper’s Review etc] and I have no problem with tseveral people doing jobs around a workshop. I think what we see here is pretty much trying to buy into an idea and at the time of purchase particualrly not wanting to know of any possible critisism towards the maker in question. Well, that’s the way.
Geoff Wooff trains people, they are not working for him but I have seen and played Caiomhin O Raghaillaigh’s first C set and I would not mind him producing a set in a workshop situation under the name of the man he’s learning from to be honest. [yeah yeah I’ll post a few pics on D’Arcy’s site soon :roll: ]

12

As I understand it, Seth Gallagher now employs no fewer than three apprentices in his shop. I think he follows the basic idea described above: Helpers do most of the “helping” or rough work and the master does the final “out-the-door-what-the-customer-wants” tuning of it all. Ultimately, no maker can claim a substandard set that gors out the door with HIS name on it is ok only because it was his apprentice and not him that did the work. It is their sole responsibility- period. I’d have either demanded an immediate refund, a set up to your expectations, or at least this one re-worked to satisfaction and an offer of a reduced price. That is (as I see it anyway) the makers duty to his customers. I don’t care HOW much you spend, the maker is in business to be in business. If he can’t hold up his end, he may need to do some serious thinking about remaining in a position to seperate people from their money. Personally, I feel that if an apprentice can do a reliable job then by all means, use them. But remember that the ultimate product qualtiy, and reputation lies with the master maker and his name.

I like the comparison to flight stuff made earlier. In my private pilot training, I asked my instructor what happened if we crashed the plane. He said emphaticly: “DON’T! When you’re flying with me, anything that happens is a reflection on me, and my licensure. If we crash, even if it was your fault, it’s MY butt and livelyhood on the line as it is MY ratings that will be stripped.” Seems to offer a good parallel here.

B~

13

There was a company in Texas that drilled for oil. One day, the derrick got stopped up and try as they may, they could not get the oil flowing again. They called the company that manufactured it and they sent out a technician. The technician looked at it and told them it would cost $50,000 to fix. Being that this was a multi-million dollar piece of equipment and the company was losing millions an hour due to the stoppage, they readily agreed. The technician went to his truck and came back with an ordinary Craftsman hammer. He climbed up to the top, measured down a precise distance. Hauled back and swung the hammer, connecting with the main pipe right on a little X he had marked off with chalk before measuring. The oil began to flow again immediately. When he came down he asked for the $50,000 for the repair and the company brass were very angry and refused to pay until they had received an itemized bill, as they felt that the simple repair wasn’t worth the price. The next day, a bill arrived from the manufacturer. It read, “hitting the pipe with a hammer - $5. Knowing where to hit it - $49,995”

My friend is a harpist. Her pedal harps run $20,000 - $30,000, even on ebay. It is my understanding that a bassoon worth playing (pro quality) will run something similar, as it is a rare instrument. And you have to admit, that UP are about as rare as they come.

That having been said, I do agree that the prices are prohibitive, and that the instrument will never become any more common while we scare new players this way.

Things will become a bit easier I think when standardization allows for a manufactured reed. They have them for GHB, after all. THEY don’t need to go back to their specific maker in order to get their instrument reeded. And while a great deal of double reed orchestral musicians make their own reeds, most do not - they’re too busy practicing to spend their time making reeds that can be bought in a store or learning how to do it. Some may have some quick modifications they make to the store bought ones, but stil…

Our “reed problem” seems to be unique to UPs.

Violinists don’t have to get strings tailor made to their specific instrument, or cut and dry the gut themselves, they go online, order a set, and have it delivered. There are 14,15,16 inch violins, but the important parts are made in such a way as to accept any strings. Now, there are different grades of strings - the lowest are $14, and the highest I’ve found are $120 a set (tho I found out where to get the $120s for 1/2 price ;o)

Anyway, paki sets, should they ever be improved to the point of being reliable and pleasant (i don’t think it would take much, just enough motivation on the part of the paki makers), people would be able to get started. Look again at violins. chinese and korean setups for $100 on ebay flood the market, with cheap violins. cheap violins that, while they don’t have the tone, or look as nice as superdupervarnish, don’t sound terrible, and allow one to learn to play in tune. Then an intermediate antique can be had for $300, an upper intermediate reallyantique for about $800, and finally, really good, pro quality for around $3000 depending, which seems to be the general range for any orchestral quality instrument even lever harps, except for a few of the rarer or huge instruments (bass, pedal harp, bassoon, contrabassoon, etc).

And all that because standardization allows for the manufacutre and availability of the instrument. Once upon a time, Stradivarius made each instrument by hand, back when the violin had its advent. Now, even the best ones are not made by an individual maker in a private workshop - they are made by instrument companies who carry them as part of their line. Can a violin instrument be custom made? Of course it can, but it usually isn’t. And so I think in 50-100 years you will see UPs made not by individual, independent pipemakers, but by companies that specialize in their manufacture, perhaps some of the companies that handle oboes and clarinets right now…

14

Interest is higher than ever in uilleann pipes, due to Riverdance, etc. We are also seeing people get into and out of the scene faster than ever before. The rate of change is accelerating.

We are seeing many items change hands more often than years ago. Internet lists and eBAY make it possible to flip an item with relative ease. Pipers are getting to be like options brokers. “I had this great set for n months but had a chance to acquire so-and-so’s machine with the twist, so I am now making the great set available.”

Pipemaking is a pure market-driven enterprise. Policies have changed in just the past twenty years. Pipecases used to be regularly provided with the set, now is separated.

I was never a fan of the ‘waiting list’ as it serves the pipemaker exclusively. But pipemaking is a business that does not allow stock to build up. We all want sets done to our spec. The margins are not there in the business.

When I ordered my D set from Alain Froment, the waiting list was 2 1/2 years and I collected the set in the fall of 1990. The new waiting list was 4 years and I fainted at that. Now, it’s 8-9 years.

15

Imagine if reedmakers charged for reeds what bowmakers charged for violing bows…many of these bows cost far more that what we pay for a full set of pipes.

16

I noticed mention of airplanes. I assume it must only be natural for pipers to own a Piper Club :laughing: I mean Cub, but have you followed the inlation rate of the price of the better planes?

Bids got as high as $381,000 (high bidder withdrew). Reserve was well over $400K

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2445009496&category=26428

Sure, this Lancair has probably got a pressurized cab (wonder how pipes would work up there?) and cruising speed of over 300 mph.

Point is, inflation is happening with lots of good, hard to find merchandise.

17

I don’t grudge the pipemakers trying to make a decent living at their trade. How many full sets do you think a quality maker can turn out in a year? Add in the overhead for a shop and a few ammenities (like being able to feed his family), then do the math. I don’t see any of these pipemakers getting rich. Are pipes expensive? Yes. Are they worth it? (IMHO) yes, every cent!

No E

18

I think that there are great thoughts made in this thread. I think that there are other economic relationships as well:

  1. The best pipe makers are clearly those making them full time.

  2. the finest pipes are consistently $7000 (or euros) +(from the maker).

  3. full-time makers are presently making between 9 and 20+ sets per year (Gallagher makes nearly 30 but he has two FT employees)

  4. Frommant, making about 9 sets, at 7000 per, before fixed overhead (equipment depreciation and rent or real estate cost) and cost of goods sold (aka raw mat), is not getting wealthy with E63000 (before reed and restoration revenues) less expenses, making fine quality sets. Though Seth with 30 sets per annum, would be grossing about $200,000 (though he may not actually be kicking out 30 full sets as he produces sets and delivers them piece meal generally). However, wages to his two apprentices would be a large cost as would real estate allocation, particularly for both in the lower half of New York state which isn’t the least expensive part of the world by far to live and conduct business. So they also with equipment depreciation and maintenance and cost of goods sold would eat significantly into the $200k. Maybe in some parts, E8,000 is a living, but with real estate inflation in both Ireland and the US, that smacks of poverty and I would be wondering what that person would be doing spending even 3,000 on a musical instrument or even 500 on a computer to read this board when they should be spending it on an education or feeding their children or something (unless you are a character in Angela’s Ashes or some dribble like that).

  5. Ulitmately a maker can choose two paths: one is to continue making very high quality pipes (if they have the talent) and thereby limit their output, but attract significant demand interest, which causes him to charge higher rates to subsidize the higher quality. In this case he will likely have lower revenues but greater security and predictability in his revenue stream through the demand (wait list). Or he can turn this into a small but growing business enterprise, hiring more and more people, producing more and more pipes, but sacraficing some quality along the way. In the later, revenue is much high, but supply will outstrip demand, particulalry if there is real fall off in quality or even perceived stigma of lesser quality. The company would grow its inventory (no wait list), have bi-annual sales and would sacrafice quality and price for volume.

  6. Pipers have to make the same choices in life. We all would love to own a Rolls Royce, particularly at the cost of a VW bug, but then it would be a Rolls anymore would it? Interestingly enough, though, you probably can buy a high-end Steinway piano any day of the week, so in a few rare cases you can have both quality and supply, though UPs are not as ubiquitous perhaps as a piano.

Conclusion: I would prefer to look to pay David, Alain, and Jeff (despite their wait lists and high prices) to continue making uilleann piping rolls royces any day over the alternative.

19

I am wondering what the real market for UPs is. Sure, there are all sorts of people inquiring about sets, but once they learn of the price and the waiting periods, how many are left who are still persistent enough to hang in there? If UPs were as cheap and readily available as, say, an electric guitar, would there really be that much of a market? I can start making music in weeks or months on guitar, and be perfectly happy with the results. How many years of dedication does it take to be able to make reasonable sounding music on UPs?

For argument’s sake, let’s say I come up with a very good sounding set made of cheap wood or plastic, with a reliable, well behaved reed made from some artificial material that I can reproduce in quantity. To be practical, I would imagine this would take a few years full-time and a couple of hundred thousand dollars to achieve, considering R & D into new materials and engineering the production processes, etc. Now, how many sets and parts would I have to produce to make my investment worthwhile, and how soon could I expect to see profit? I think I would have to count on selling approx a thousand sets per year to match the electric guitar analogy.

How real is it to expect that there are that many people out there willing to spend years to learn how to play UPs, regardless of how inexpensive the UP set is, or how available it is? I can’t help but think that, lovely as they are, UPs can never be expected to become any more popular than the basoon that someone mentioned previously, or the oboe, perhaps, i.e. just on the edge of obscurity. That precludes mass production from ever being a worthwhile pursuit, IMHO.

djm

20

but orchestral instruments will ALWAYS be more popular than the pipes. Probably even more so than GHPs. The simple reason is numbers. Worldwide, there’s probably hundreds and possibly even more symphony orchestras to every one Irish piper. Most of those are going to employ at least ONE oboe and/or basoon. I know they still aren’t the kind of thing you’ll find at your local Play It Again Music shop or Mars Music or whatever, but still much more widely available I would have to think than pipes are at present anyway.

The Riverdance/Braveheart/Titanic “Must learn this or that Irish instrument!” craze has been gone for several years now with few individual exceptions. But u. pipe prices still seem to be working up higher and higher. The only other thing I’ve seen thats more than doubled pricewise in the last ten years is gas. :stuck_out_tongue: and yet the cost of pipes in almost every case seems to have tripled and even quadrupled from what folks say they were “back in the old days” (meaning the eightys and early ninteys). It certainly does seem that while there is X amount of work, and X amount of skill and X amount of rare materials that goes into making them, that uilleann pipes aren’t going to get any cheaper any time soon.

Some form of common ground would be nice, even if our dream sets (Rolls) will never be had for the cost of a penny chanter (VW Bug). :frowning: